# "Dawkins Delusion" book on its way. Anyone read it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640 "2008-01-30T21:26:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/1 "2008-01-30T21:26:18Z")
I’m sure many here are familiar with Richard Dawkins’ book, _[The God Delusion.](http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201728035&sr=8-1)_ A cousin of mine – to say he is not a Dawkins fan would be an understatement – is sending me a book he claims is a better work on the subject, _[The Dawkins Delusion – Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Devine,](http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/083083446X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201728405&sr=8-3)_ by Alister McGrath and Joanna Collicutt McGrath. I’m curious…has anyone read this and would you care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/2 "2008-01-30T21:56:23Z")
Something has to be defined before it can be denied. I have noted a tendency by some theists to try to describe atheism and related subjects appear cultish. It’s not skepticism and reason - it’s Dawkinsism! It’s not biology and evolution - it’s Darwinism! As though these concepts have no value outside of the “cult leaders” who advance them. I don’t blame them - it’s easier to attack reputations than to delve into that messy confusing “science” stuff. I admit I’m not likely to read the McGraths’ book, but then, I didn’t read Dawkins’ either. I came to my atheistic views quite independently. The individual who had the most influence? Jerry Zucker, possibly. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/3 "2008-01-30T22:06:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I admit I’m not likely to read the McGraths’ book, but then, I didn’t read Dawkins’ either. [/quote] Well, at least you don’t play favorites. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/4 "2008-01-30T22:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Dawkins Delusion – Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Devine Why would any rational person deny the existence of Andy Devine? > **[Andy Devine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Devine)** > > Andrew Vabre Devine (October 7, 1905 – February 18, 1977) was an American character actor known for his distinctive raspy, crackly voice and roles in Western films, including his role as Cookie, the sidekick of Roy Rogers in 10 feature films. He also appeared alongside John Wayne in films such as Stagecoach (1939), The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and How the West Was Won (both 1962). He is also remembered as Jingles on the TV series The Adventures of Wild Bill Hickok from 1951 to 1958, as D... ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/5 "2008-01-30T22:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Why would any rational person deny the existence of Andy Devine? > **[Andy Devine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Devine)** > > Andrew Vabre Devine (October 7, 1905 – February 18, 1977) was an American character actor known for his distinctive raspy, crackly voice and roles in Western films, including his role as Cookie, the sidekick of Roy Rogers in 10 feature films. He also appeared alongside John Wayne in films such as Stagecoach (1939), The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, and How the West Was Won (both 1962). He is also remembered as Jingles on the TV series The Adventures of Wild Bill Hickok from 1951 to 1958, as D... [/QUOTE] Cleopatra, Queen of Denial? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/6 "2008-01-30T22:39:39Z")
You can listen to Dawkins and McGrath debate on youtube and google video. I’d imagine that they go over pretty much the same information. In the two talks I’ve listened to I think McGrath doesn’t really answer the points Dawkins brings up and isn’t very impressive. I bet the book fares better though. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/7 "2008-01-30T23:21:53Z")
I haven’t heard of this book, but the other day I saw this one: [There is a God: how the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind](http://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335290/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201735191&sr=1-2). It looks pretty interesting, and when paging through it I saw that he does make references to Dawkins. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/8 "2008-01-31T01:18:36Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] I haven’t heard of this book, but the other day I saw this one: [There is a God: how the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind](http://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335290/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201735191&sr=1-2). It looks pretty interesting, and when paging through it I saw that he does make references to Dawkins. [/QUOTE] How the world’s most notorious atheist changed HIS mind? You mean Madalyn Murray O’Hare not only found God, she had a sex change too? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/9 "2008-01-31T01:39:38Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] I haven’t heard of this book, but the other day I saw this one: [There is a God: how the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind](http://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335290/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201735191&sr=1-2). It looks pretty interesting, and when paging through it I saw that he does make references to Dawkins. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s Antony Flew and a story a few years ago. Some people seem to think that if they once didn’t believe in God, but now do (or vice-versa), their new belief has more substance than someone who never changed their mind. I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/10 "2008-01-31T01:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Yeah, that’s Antony Flew and a story a few years ago. Some people seem to think that if they once didn’t believe in God, but now do (or vice-versa), their new belief has more substance than someone who never changed their mind. I don’t buy it. [/QUOTE] I don’t think that’s automatically the case; after all, you have theists who become atheists, and atheists who become theists. It happens both ways. In fairness though, people bring up Antony Flew because he wasn’t just any atheist. Rather, he was one of the foremost atheistic debaters in his time, as was therefore well-informed regarding the classic arguments for atheism. In other words, while this doesn’t automatically justify his newfound beliefs, it does make his conversion atypical. BTW, this is the point at which a certain Doper invariably says, “But Flew has made contradictory statements regarding his theistic beliefs! Obviously, his testimony can’t be trusted!” I think that’s both naive and a gross overstatement. Even if his stated beliefs have indeed varied, that should come as no surprise; after all, it could suggest a progression in his own ways of thinking. Indeed, according to Dr. Gary Habermas (one of Flew’s erstwhile debate opponents), Antony Flew first converted from atheism to deism, but has since switched to full-blown theism. It should be unsurprising that statements regarding his beliefs will have varied with time.. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/11 "2008-01-31T02:17:51Z")
I’ve never even heard of “the world’s most notorious atheist.” I therefore suspect that he may not really be all that notorious. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/12 "2008-01-31T02:38:33Z")
Antony Flew was the son of a minster and no doubt had a religious upbringing. It doesn’t seem all that unusual to me that such a person, deep down inside, had a religious need to believe, particularly as he draws close to the end of a long life. I’m basically an atheist, certainly at least an agnostic, yet I’m pretty sure the last conscious thought in my head (if I’m in a position to be aware of dying) will be, _well, here I go to find out if there is any kind of afterlife… I don’t see how, but I hope I have an a-ha moment, otherwise it’s gonna kinda suck…_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/13 "2008-01-31T02:56:25Z")
Antony Flew was persuaded by bad ID arguments. In particular, he was swayed by fallacious statistical arguments regarding abiogenesis which he falsely stated have not been addressed by Dawkins and others. He admits, however, that he hasn’t actually kept up with or read any of the science. He basically doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s a philosopher, not a scientist. He is also a pretty obscure figure who most atheists, including me, had never even heard of before religionists started trumpeting his rather unremarkable conversion. Atheism is not an ideology. It has no leaders. The fact that some obscure philosopher was dumb enough to fall for a creationist argument is not making anybody else fall to their knees. From what I’ve read of his statements, Flew is just a dipshit that’s too easily impressed by ID bullshit. He mneeds to take a science class. As to the OP, I haven’t read it cover to cover, but I skimmed a lot of it at the bookstore not too long ago and got a pretty good sense of it. It’s not as bad as some of the other stupid, whiny, anti-Dawkins books that are out there but it doesn’t offer much to support the existence of God either. It largely addresses some of dawkins’ more sweeping claims about religion being toxic in general, claims that he focuses too much on fundie beliefs and generalizes them to all Christians, that he takes the Bible too literally – or rather, that he assumes all Christians do – that Christians are necessarily irrational and stupid, etc. These points are all pretty fair, Dawkins does get too polemic at times, too categorical, too sweeping, unecessarily belittling. That’s all true. The fact that he is abrasive and belittling, however, is not, in itself, a proof that God exists. While a lot of time is spent attacking Dawkins’ style and his conclusions about religious people in general, I didn’t see much in the way of counters to his arguments against the existence of God. There was _ad populem_ argumentation and some fallacious special pleading about the necessity of religion for morality. Maybe there was someything really dynamite that I missed in my reading, but I dount it. All in all, it didn’t strike me as literalist, fundie hogwash like Strobel or McDowell, more like "We’re not _all_ Noah’s Ark believing knuckle dragging morons kind of stuff. Don’t expect anything really substantial in the EoG debate, though. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/14 "2008-01-31T02:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] I haven’t heard of this book, but the other day I saw this one: [There is a God: how the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind](http://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335290/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201735191&sr=1-2). It looks pretty interesting, and when paging through it I saw that he does make references to Dawkins. [/QUOTE] Flew does not appear to have changed his mind so much as lost it to old age. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?\_r=1&scp=2&sq=anthony+flew&st=nyt&oref=slogin](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=anthony+flew&st=nyt&oref=slogin) ---
**Author:** ![tychobrahe\_snose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@tychobrahe\_snose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tychobrahe_snose)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/15 "2008-01-31T02:58:58Z")
The positions are both based on a belief…unprovable in either camp. What’s the point? Selling books? Tycho ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/16 "2008-01-31T03:18:51Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] I’ve never even heard of “the world’s most notorious atheist.” I therefore suspect that he may not really be all that notorious. [/QUOTE] Flew is famous in the same way that Maynard Smith is famous as a biologist or Ed Witten as a physicist. Fairly well recognised within their field but not as well known to the educated layman as Stephen J Gould or Stephen Hawking. The NY Times article is very good and worth a read. It goes a lot into the back story behind his decision to convert. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/17 "2008-01-31T03:31:22Z")
I remember that NYT Sunday Magazine article. Seems like Antony Flew over the cuckoo’s nest. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/18 "2008-01-31T03:42:41Z")
Why \*would \*I read such a book? Dawkins may be abrasive, but he’s insightful and accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/19 "2008-01-31T03:46:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He is also a pretty obscure figure who most atheists, including me, had never even heard of before religionists started trumpeting his rather unremarkable conversion. [/QUOTE] A lot of people used one of his books in college philosophyhttp://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MmJHVU9Rv3YC&dq=anthony+flew+A+Dictionary+of+Philosophy&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ciob6wx3vM&sig=LRvhplsDYiU9WEBcv5vHX45lrAM classes. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640/20 "2008-01-31T03:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] A lot of people used one of his books in college philosophyhttp://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MmJHVU9Rv3YC&dq=anthony+flew+A+Dictionary+of+Philosophy&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ciob6wx3vM&sig=LRvhplsDYiU9WEBcv5vHX45lrAM classes. [/QUOTE] Better link: > **[A Dictionary of Philosophy](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MmJHVU9Rv3YC&dq=anthony+flew+A+Dictionary+of+Philosophy&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ciob6wx3vM&sig=LRvhplsDYiU9WEBcv5vHX45lrAM)** > > This is a new, updated and revised edition of a reference work that has proved invaluable as a tool for the student of philosophy, as well as a handbook for the general reader. From the classical thinkers through Aquinas, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, up... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-delusion-book-on-its-way-anyone-read-it/435640.md?page=2)