# Dawkins: Is he dangerous? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953 "2010-03-10T06:35:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/101 "2010-03-10T23:01:52Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Well, then I think I stated my case convincingly overall. > > But I want to state one caveat, mostly directed at the kinds of arguments that **ITR Champion** likes to make: getting rid of religion (voluntarily and convincingly) will not get rid of barbarism. It’ll just remove one important irrational reason for committing or condoning stupidity, hate and violence. There’s no reason it can’t be replaced by something just as bad and irrational. It just increases the chances that things will get a little better. Well, if the new thing is just religion with another name, then no real change has occured. Personally I think the problem is dogmatic ideology, as that’s the actual category of things that have the problem of asserting what is correct in a manner that bypasses rational analysis (or tries to). This includes the things we generally consider religions, _and_ all the favored tu quoques like communism as well. If we could break the back of all these things and not replace them with more of the same, I think that pretty much _inevitably_ whatever replaced them would be better. Barbarism would persist, but it would face real challenges and likely be forced out of the mainstream, as has happened to racism in many places. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/102 "2010-03-10T23:05:13Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > The thing is, whatever believers may claim, I don’t actually think even a percent of them thinks their respective holy books are infallible and unambiguous. All of them pick and choose, based on a mixture of reason, moral judgments, personal preference, creative interpretation, peer pressure and ignorance of the actual text. I think that 99% of these people aren’t making these selections themselves, but are instead dealing with pre-cooked and socialized material as delivered by preachers. And I think that most of these people accept that material uncritically. I base these conclusions on the fact that **none** of the religious people I know think their holy books/religions are fallible and ambiguous. They cherry-pick, but not consciously. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/103 "2010-03-10T23:08:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You mean like 9-11? > > Religion creates disasters and smaller tragedies on a regular basis. He’s right to be afraid of religion. > > **It’s not paranoia to be afraid of something provably dangerous,** and religion has a long, long history to prove that it IS dangerous. Bold mine, though fear/paranoia may be a normal human reaction to the above it does not produce a positive response such as the gifts of the Spirit, Love, Peace, etc. Fear is a negative motivator. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/104 "2010-03-10T23:09:32Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Interesting. I don’t know, even by reputation, of anyone who thinks a lump of cells has more rights than {an adult human being}. The most rights anyone’s prepared to extend to said clump is the right not to be summarily done to death; if you truly think you live your life with fewer rights than that, I pity you. Nonsense. Even if I needed to do so to survive, I don’t have the right to crawl inside you and use you for a life support system. And as said; plenty of the anti-abortionists are perfectly happy if the woman is sickened or killed. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/105 "2010-03-10T23:11:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Bold mine, though fear/paranoia may be a normal human reaction to the above it does not produce a positive response such as the gifts of the Spirit, Love, Peace, etc. Fear is a negative motivator. Fear can produce the positive response of avoiding bad things, unpleasantness, pain, and death. I fear the effects of getting hit by cars, therefore I don’t run out into traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/106 "2010-03-10T23:24:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Bold mine, though fear/paranoia may be a normal human reaction to the above it does not produce a positive response such as the gifts of the Spirit, Love, Peace, etc. Fear is a negative motivator. Fear is exceptionally useful. Without fear you’d more than likely be dead by now. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/107 "2010-03-10T23:38:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Fear can produce the positive response of avoiding bad things, unpleasantness, pain, and death. I fear the effects of getting hit by cars, therefore I don’t run out into traffic. Fear is not a inherent part of the human spirit. Yes it can be used to keep us safe and the like, but it is a negative motivator and works by restricting action. God’s ways are quite different, fear was never intended for us, nor were we meant for negative motivation. I don’t fear getting hit by a car because I trust in God, follow His Spirit and know that if He has me run into traffic for any reason, which is unlikely, He will make a way for me, and even if I do get hit, He will cover that too, even to eternity. Not that I’m perfect in not being afraid, but I am able to overcome it in Christ and do what the Lord wants, and the fear is not paralyzing then, nor does not cause one to run and hide nor turn back or strike out. It has been point out that Dawkins is/seems afraid and strikes out, this is negative and will breed negativity, which is not good. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/108 "2010-03-10T23:42:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fear is not a inherent part of the human spirit. Yes it can be used to keep us safe and the like, but it is a negative motivator and works by restricting action. God’s ways are quite different, fear was never intended for us, nor were we meant for negative motivation. > > I don’t fear getting hit by a car because I trust in God, follow His Spirit and know that if He has me run into traffic for any reason, which is unlikely, He will make a way for me, and even if I do get hit, He will cover that too, even to eternity. It’s a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/109 "2010-03-10T23:42:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fear is not a inherent part of the human spirit. Yes it can be used to keep us safe and the like, but it is a negative motivator and works by restricting action. God’s ways are quite different, fear was never intended for us, nor were we meant for negative motivation. > > I don’t fear getting hit by a car because I trust in God, follow His Spirit and know that if He has me run into traffic for any reason, which is unlikely, He will make a way for me, and even if I do get hit, He will cover that too, even to eternity. Nonsense. Not only is fear one of the most basic of human emotions, not only does your god not exist, but I am quite certain that you don’t actually behave the way you are claiming people should, because you’d be long dead. Your imaginary god won’t protect you from a real car. > [@kanicbird](#): > > It has been point out that Dawkins is/seems afraid and strikes out, this is negative and will breed negativity, which is not good. Fearing things that it is rational to fear is a good thing, not a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/110 "2010-03-10T23:44:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Bold mine, though fear/paranoia may be a normal human reaction to the above it does not produce a positive response such as the gifts of the Spirit, Love, Peace, etc. Fear is a negative motivator. So…are you saying that 9/11 is the fault of atheists? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/111 "2010-03-10T23:44:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fear is not a inherent part of the human spirit. Yes it can be used to keep us safe and the like, but it is a negative motivator and works by restricting action. God’s ways are quite different, fear was never intended for us, nor were we meant for negative motivation. > > I don’t fear getting hit by a car because I trust in God, follow His Spirit and know that if He has me run into traffic for any reason, which is unlikely, He will make a way for me, and even if I do get hit, He will cover that too, even to eternity. > > Not that I’m perfect in not being afraid, but I am able to overcome it in Christ and do what the Lord wants, and the fear is not paralyzing then, nor does not cause one to run and hide nor turn back or strike out. > > It has been point out that Dawkins is/seems afraid and strikes out, this is negative and will breed negativity, which is not good. I disagree with your entire line of thinking here, but I am not going to encourage you to test your theories, as telling you to play in traffic is against forum rules. I will note that it’s entirely possible that God might wish people didn’t have self-preservative instincts. Not any God that _I’d_ care for, certainly, but a God who is amused when people die through their own stupidity would certianly be consistent with the sort of behavior we see when people play The Sims. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/112 "2010-03-10T23:45:22Z")
Going further, I see religion personally as organized man made rules and rituals without spirituality (without contacting the supernatural), probably as ‘dangerous and destructive’ as Der Trihs sees them IMHO. There are also forms of spirituality (contact with supernatural) which are also ‘dangerous’ IMHO but that is another issue. The difference is how to reach the other side, via fear - that just divides, or to show the Love of Jesus, if you are fearful you can not reach them with Love. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/113 "2010-03-10T23:49:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The difference is how to reach the other side, via fear - that just divides, or to show the Love of Jesus, if you are fearful you can not reach them with Love. Love is no more automatically good than fear is automatically bad. The person who loves a serial killer and covers for him is doing harm; the person who scoops a wandering child out of traffic for fear of their life is doing good. This idealization of love as something always good, as something other than just another emotion is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/114 "2010-03-10T23:50:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I disagree with your entire line of thinking here, but I am not going to encourage you to test your theories, as telling you to play in traffic is against forum rules. > > I will note that it’s entirely possible that God might wish people didn’t have self-preservative instincts. Not any God that _I’d_ care for, certainly, but a God who is amused when people die through their own stupidity would certianly be consistent with the sort of behavior we see when people play The Sims. Just consider great men of peace, how they overcame fear, they were able to reach people in a way that someone motivated by fear would have escalated the problem. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/115 "2010-03-10T23:51:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just consider great men of peace, how they overcame fear, they were able to reach people in a way that someone motivated by fear would have escalated the problem. I’m pretty sure they didn’t play in traffic either. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/116 "2010-03-10T23:51:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Love is no more automatically good than fear is automatically bad. The person who loves a serial killer and covers for him is doing harm;. Is he not a fellow human that if shown a little real love could turn his life around? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/117 "2010-03-10T23:53:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure they didn’t play in traffic either. Tetimon \ Square China ? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/118 "2010-03-10T23:53:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Is he not a fellow human that if shown a little real love could turn his life around? You mean, besides the person who’s loving them and covering for them? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/119 "2010-03-10T23:53:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Going further, I see religion personally as organized man made rules and rituals without spirituality (without contacting the supernatural), probably as ‘dangerous and destructive’ as Der Trihs sees them IMHO. There are also forms of spirituality (contact with supernatural) which are also ‘dangerous’ IMHO but that is another issue. If you really do believe that, don’t piss about saying that people who are worried about religions shouldn’t because “fear is negative”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953/120 "2010-03-10T23:54:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just consider great men of peace, how they overcame fear Overcoming fear is not the same as being without fear. If they’d been without fear, they never would have had the chance to become great men. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-is-he-dangerous/531953.md?page=7)