# Dawkins makes another innocent mistake: The Gospels **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877 "2009-04-21T19:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/101 "2009-04-25T11:29:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This would assume that man has the authority to actually change the Word of God by some sort of manipulation of the scriptures. While different words can be used in translations, the ‘meaning’ behind the scriptures are consistent and not changeable by man. > > God shows us this in the 10 commandants, which Moses takes down 3 times, each time different words are used, the meaning, how God uses the Word to speak to your heart is consistent however. > > The only reason to study the history of the Bible, would to see the glory of God that all throughout attempts of man to change His Word (both intentional and accidental) it still stands unchanged. I guess you haven’t heard of that thing called the Koran? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/102 "2009-04-25T12:41:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I guess you haven’t heard of that thing called the Koran? I guess you have failed to remember the Book of Mormon? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/103 "2009-04-25T13:10:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This would assume that man has the authority to actually change the Word of God by some sort of manipulation of the scriptures. While different words can be used in translations, the ‘meaning’ behind the scriptures are consistent and not changeable by man. > > God shows us this in the 10 commandants, which Moses takes down 3 times, each time different words are used, the meaning, how God uses the Word to speak to your heart is consistent however. > > The only reason to study the history of the Bible, would to see the glory of God that all throughout attempts of man to change His Word (both intentional and accidental) it still stands unchanged. Aren’t _you_ assuming that it was God’s plan for us to have one final authoritative collection of scripture. There’s no indication in any of the books the church decided to canonize that’s the case. No prophecy, no command, not even a reference indicating that what we know as the Bible was part of God’s plan. I find it ironic that those insisting the Bible is\* the\* authority in revealing God’s will and plan have nothing in the Bible to back up that claim. God gave man the authority to change the written word via free will. All the evidence shows that to be absolutely true, and the truth, as you know, is something we are supposed to diligently seek. You however are suggesting a violation of to support a doctrine that has no scriptural basis. Joseph Smith published a version of the Bible called the inspired version {more irony} which contains alterations. Lot’s of people accept that as an improved version in which the Holt Spirit fixed what men had changed. I’m guessing you don’t accept that version as authoritative. Funny huh? A prime example of the scriptures ability to be altered is dismissed while you simultaneously insist that it cannot be. God allowed Smith to make alterations and promote them as scripture but down through the ages he prevented the books, that _men_ declared were scripture, from being altered. You’re promoting a pretty inconsistent God in order to hold on to a tradition of men. I find that doctrine far to limiting. If God can and does speak to our heart’s and call us to worship in spirit and truth then there’s no need to have any final authoritative writing. If I can go directly to the source then I don’t need to rely on ancient writing to be accurate and unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/104 "2009-04-25T13:13:30Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I guess you have failed to remember the Book of Mormon? hehe, Indeed, or Smith’s _Inspired_ version of the Bible. I’m just grateful Smith was around to restore the divine truths that men were not allowed to alter. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/105 "2009-04-25T14:09:31Z")
In the interest of all lurkers, Do not feed the birds. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/106 "2009-04-25T20:17:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On all my previous threads about Dawkins and how truth-challenged he his, the atheist side, or at least some of them, have accepted my main point. (That now appears to include this thread as well.) It is of course the case that one gets the impression from some posters that they’re upset about me telling the truth, but that doesn’t bother me much. While I haven’t been participating in this, mainly because i’m nowhere near a Bible reader, let alone scholar, but I have been following along (to the extent I can), and I think i’d like to correct your impression of me if possible. First, as a general point, you appear to be of the idea that when you’ve been agreed with, atheists have concurred with you on Dawkins’ truth-challenged nature. This is probably more a semantic nitpick, but i’d like to point out that while i’ve certainly disagreed with Dawkins, i’ve not believed him to be deceitful, which is often what you infer by his wrongness. That is to say, my opinion is generally “in this he is wrong”, while yours is “in this he is wrong, and wrong deliberately and with malice”. Anyway, your first quote of me I have no issue with. The second, however, came in a thread in which I disagreed with you on many more points than the one I agreed with; I really don’t think it’s fair for you to characterise me as “agreeing with your main point” when I agreed with you on two points. Rather more oddly, on the later point in that post I agreed with you even more strongly - you probably should’ve picked that one to quote from! > [@](#): > > And it seems that Dawkins mainly tries to win converts to atheism by telling things that aren’t true. I mean no offense, but while certainly I disagree with Dawkins on some things, I disagree with you on more - and I find that you “tell things that aren’t true” to a greater extent than he. I don’t think either you or he are liars, though. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/107 "2009-04-26T01:34:33Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I mean no offense, but while certainly I disagree with Dawkins on some things, I disagree with you on more - and I find that you “tell things that aren’t true” to a greater extent than he. I don’t think either you or he are liars, though. I think this is an excellent point. I’ve always found **ITR** ’s eagerness to characterize Dawkins as a liar rather than just incorrect to be unnecessarily judgmental. I know my own personal bias affects my judgment but I wouldn’t characterize myself as a liar for having it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/108 "2009-04-26T02:05:19Z")
I’d like to know how **ITR** felt about Ben Stein’s movie, _Expelled_. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/109 "2009-04-26T11:34:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I guess you haven’t heard of that thing called the Koran? The Koran is built on the premise that God is unable to preserve his word against the efforts of man and has to send a revision. The Bible is built on the premise that God’s Word is unalterable by man and is eternal. [QUOTE=Lacunae Quell] I guess you have failed to remember the Book of Mormon? [/QUOTE] I don’t know much about the BoM, but with the freedom that Christ offers it doesn’t seem needed and IMHO can only add additional rules (laws) and serve to keep people in bondage instead of setting them free in Christ. One aspect I do know about it is that the Bible is the final say, not the BoM, which is a positive. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/110 "2009-04-26T12:46:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Koran is built on the premise that God is unable to preserve his word against the efforts of man and has to send a revision. > > The Bible is built on the premise that God’s Word is unalterable by man and is eternal. > > I don’t know much about the BoM, but with the freedom that Christ offers it doesn’t seem needed and IMHO can only add additional rules (laws) and serve to keep people in bondage instead of setting them free in Christ. One aspect I do know about it is that the Bible is the final say, not the BoM, which is a positive. Show me the prophecy, command , or biblical reference to this doctrine. Show me the passage that indicates it was God’s plan to provide a particular final authoritative guide. Personally I think this is a tradition started by man and it’s a huge mistake for people to believe it. I’m sure you agree that we’re instructed not to follow the traditions of men. So, please if you can, show me the passage or passages in God’s unalterable word that supports the doctrine you’re promoting. We’ll keep this brief since we don’t want to hijack the thread ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/111 "2009-04-26T12:50:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’d like to know how **ITR** felt about Ben Stein’s movie, _Expelled_. Is it good? It’s on my Netflix list. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/112 "2009-04-26T15:21:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Is it good? It’s on my Netflix list. If one wishes to sit back and critique the lies, malicious editing, and general ignorance promoted by Ben Stein, it is excellent. For information regarding the science behind the Theory of Evolution the serious beliefs of genuine Evangelical Christians, or even a serious discussion of the conflict between Creationists and science, not so much. Stein comes off looking like a dishonest supporter of the Moody Bible Institute or a fellow traveller of Kent Hovind. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/113 "2009-04-26T15:33:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If one wishes to sit back and critique the lies, malicious editing, and general ignorance promoted by Ben Stein, it is excellent. > > For information regarding the science behind the Theory of Evolution the serious beliefs of genuine Evangelical Christians, or even a serious discussion of the conflict between Creationists and science, not so much. > > Stein comes off looking like a dishonest supporter of the Moody Bible Institute or a fellow traveller of Kent Hovind. How disappointing. I think it may be off my list. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/114 "2009-04-26T15:48:46Z")
While we’re on the subject of “the Bible and evolution,” let me offer these verses: “For the whole creation, submissive to Your commands, had its very nature re-created … where there had been water, dry land was seen to rise … land animals became aquatic; swimming ones took to the land.” (Wisdom 29:6-7, 19) Out of context, sure. And from the Deuterocanonicals. But still… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/115 "2009-04-26T20:53:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > While we’re on the subject of “the Bible and evolution,” let me offer these verses: > > “For the whole creation, submissive to Your commands, had its very nature re-created … where there had been water, dry land was seen to rise … land animals became aquatic; swimming ones took to the land.” (Wisdom 29:6-7, 19) > > Out of context, sure. And from the Deuterocanonicals. But still… I would take that as spiritual, not physical. People going through trials and the like are in a desert or arid places, other people are said to be on the sea or even underwater. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/116 "2009-04-26T21:18:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Show me the prophecy, command , or biblical reference to this doctrine. [QUOTE=Matthew 5:18] "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Luke 21:33] " Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. [/QUOTE] If one tries to add to His Words: > [@](#): > > Proverbs 30:6 > Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. Taking away does no good either: [QUOTE=Rev] 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Show me the passage that indicates it was God’s plan to provide a particular final authoritative guide. The Bible is interconnected across all books, IIRC Jesus directly quotes from all OT books (IMHO declaring/accepting them as scripture as He does declare what is stated as absolute truth of God) except IIRC Ruth, He also says: [QUOTE=John 5:39] You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, [/QUOTE] As Jesus declares all the scriptures testify about Him, then the NT also is included as they also testify about Him, and is the source of that statement of truth of God. > [@](#): > > Personally I think this is a tradition started by man and it’s a huge mistake for people to believe it. I’m sure you agree that we’re instructed not to follow the traditions of men. So, please if you can, show me the passage or passages in God’s unalterable word that supports the doctrine you’re promoting. You can personally believe it if you wish, God wants to be found by us, but only if we are willing to seek Him. He has hidden Himself right in front of us at all times, ready to receive us, so why would He make it difficult for us to find Him? The real teacher is the Holy Spirit, not some printed words on a page. We start out reading the printed words, thinking about them, but God writes them on our hearts, at which time, as a act of God, you know the Word. > [@](#): > > Hebrews 8:10 > This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/117 "2009-04-26T22:27:30Z")
[Sidetrack] > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A Christian life is centered around establishing a relationship with God (1), not about obsessive Bible study. Or as Dr. Daniel Wallace said, “The Bible is not the fourth member of the Trinity.” (2) 1. Some believe a Christian life is centered around behaving in a manner befitting a Christian; I was not aware the acts versus faith debate had been resolved solely in favor of faith for all Christians. 2. If one believes in the inerrancy of the Bible, shouldn’t one at least research it a bit? If one doesn’t believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, why should one get one’s knickers in a twist over a historical critique? [/Sidetrack] ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/118 "2009-04-26T22:33:47Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > if( (thread.title.contains(“Dawkins”) and thread.starter == “ITR” ) > { > if( thread.date-datestack.last \< 21 ) { > check\_for\_irrelevancy\_to\_atheist\_position(); print “Oh Sartre! Not again. :rolleyes:”; > } > push thread.date, datestack; > } > > sub check\_for\_irrelevancy\_to\_atheist\_position(); > { > if (thread.contains(“sound reasons to be religious”)) { > freeze(create\_object(Hell)); return(1/0); > } > else return TRUE; > } Thank you for a post I can understand. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/119 "2009-04-26T22:41:17Z")
Matt 5:18 has nothing to do with what I asked for. Luke 21:33 might be seen as relevant but there’s no indication he’s talking about people writing his words down. > [@kanicbird](#): > > If one tries to add to His Words: Proverbs 30:6 Since that’s the OT someone should have told the NT writers to cut it out. They added a bunch didn’t they? > [@](#): > > Taking away does no good either: I’m not sure why this warning is necessary since you claim that it couldn’t happen. Let’s also mention that this verse concerns Revelation only, not the Bible as a whole. Jesus was a jew speaking to Jews so he did quote the OT. Also not relevant to what I asked for. > [@](#): > > The Bible is interconnected across all books, IIRC Jesus directly quotes from all OT books (IMHO declaring/accepting them as scripture as He does declare what is stated as absolute truth of God) except IIRC Ruth, He also says: > > As Jesus declares all the scriptures testify about Him, then the NT also is included as they also testify about Him, and is the source of that statement of truth of God. Shame on you. Didn’t you just quote the verse that said don’t add to his words. Jesus is obviously speaking to Jews about the OT. He’s not referring to the NT because **none** of it was written yet. > [@](#): > > You can personally believe it if you wish, God wants to be found by us, but only if we are willing to seek Him. He has hidden Himself right in front of us at all times, ready to receive us, so why would He make it difficult for us to find Him? This has zero to do with what we’re discussing. It’s an obvious fact that there are many interpretations of the Bible and various opinions about it’s authority. For me it’s a question of seeking and valuing the truth and trying to discern that from man’s traditions. > [@](#): > > The real teacher is the Holy Spirit, not some printed words on a page. We start out reading the printed words, thinking about them, but God writes them on our hearts, at which time, as a act of God, you know the Word. I’m thinking the Holy Spirit could use _anything_ to teach us and lead us toward the truth if that’s the sincere intent of our hearts. Written words, spoken words, pictures, nature, anything at all. That’s my point. Because the real teaching happens internally there is no need for any book , any written words to be given unwarranted and unintended authority. We don’t need to ignore or rationalize real evidence concerning biblical text to uphold a baseless tradition. I asked for something substantial in the way of a scriptural reference to show the Bible is an authoritative part of God’s plan as many Christian’s believe. You haven’t presented it. No one will because it doesn’t exist. That’s not to say people shouldn’t value the Bible or discount parts of it they find meaningful or uplifting. I just wish they’d be aware that it’s going on inside them and they don’t need to cling to traditional beliefs about the Bible that aren’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877/120 "2009-04-26T23:56:09Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] [QUOTE=Matthew 5:18] “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished” [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Hang on a mo, this one can’t possibly be taken literally - I mean, the original versions of the Bible weren’t written in English. The very quote itself is altered in both lettering and strokes by being in a different language. The same would appear to hold accurate for all of your quotes there. It is one thing to claim that the meaning holds the same throughout all versions of the Bible, but to claim that the exact wording holds true - even the exact strokes - and to do so in the non-original language is on the very face of it illogical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-makes-another-innocent-mistake-the-gospels/493877.md?page=7)