### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/1 "2008-10-16T21:41:02Z")
Some time ago I started a thread asking for the justification behind Richard Dawkins’ statement about the death of Alan Turing. Since not much justification was provided, I’m forced to conclude that it was a falsehood. Now some people say that a single outright lie is enough to discredit both a book and its author. While I understand the logic behind this, I don’t quite agree. I’m willing to extend a “we all make mistakes” attitude in cases like this. When an author goofs once, it may be an innocent mistake. When he lies constantly, we can be sure it’s not. With that in mind, I want to look at another Dawkins statement.
During a discussion on religion and morality, Dawkins say that Martin Luther King’s leadership of the civil rights movement did not arise from King’s Christian beliefs. Rather, Dawkins says that King based his philosophy of non-violent resistance on the teachings of Ghandi.
As it happens, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (I can’t imagine why Dawkins fails to use his full and correct title) was kind enough to tell us what his political philosophy is based on.
> [@The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King](#):
>
> There are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”
>
> Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an “I it” relationship for an “I thou” relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and sinful. Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man’s tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness?
He was also kind enough to tell us why he had chosen to lead the movement of resistance against segregation in Alabama.
> [@The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King](#):
>
> , I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. Just as the prophets of the eighth century B.C. left their villages and carried their “thus saith the Lord” far beyond the boundaries of their home towns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own home town. Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid.
He was also kind enough to tell us which examples of people engaging in non-violent resistance to unjust laws were a personal inspiration to him.
> [@The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King](#):
>
> Of course, there is nothing new about this kind of civil disobedience. It was evidenced sublimely in the refusal of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to obey the laws of Nebuchadnezzar, on the ground that a higher moral law was at stake. It was practiced superbly by the early Christians, who were willing to face hungry lions and the excruciating pain of chopping blocks rather than submit to certain unjust laws of the Roman Empire.
And he was kind enough to tell us who he credits for the use of non-violent tactics.
> [@The Most Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King](#):
>
> I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle.
Now if past threads are any guide, someone will soon accuse me of taking King’s words out of context. I did not do so. Everything I’ve written accurately represents what King said. (The quotes are taken from his _Letter from Birmingham Jail_.) King does express admiration for other groups of protestors in history besides those biblical examples. He mentions Socrates and the Boston Tea Party. But his focus on the laws of God as expressed by Jesus Christ as the source of both his moral vision and his political tactics dominates throughout the letter. Moreover, King’s vision and beliefs remained remarkably stable throughout his life. One finds the same ideas in both his earliest and his last writings and speeches.
It’s true that King did read the works of Ghandi, did admire Ghandi, and did often quote Ghandi as a source of inspiration. But to say that King’s philosophy was “based on” the teachings of Ghandi is flat-out incorrect. King based everything he said and did on Christian principles.
(Two other facts that Dawkins omits are also worth mentioning. King first encountered the works of Ghandi while studying at Crozier Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. If he hadn’t been studying to become a Christian preacher, he might never have encountered those works at all. Second, Dawkins neglects to mention how heavily Ghandi was influenced by the Bible and by many Christian writers.)
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/2 "2008-10-16T21:46:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Now some people say that a single outright lie is enough to discredit both a book and its author.
Based on what you’ve written and quoted and without knowing what exactly Dawkins said about King, at worst it looks to me like Dawkins was mistaken. What’s the “outright lie” part and how and to what extent would it discredit Dawkins to “some people”?
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/3 "2008-10-16T21:47:42Z")
Dawkins and King are (were) both complex people. This is like those arguments about whether or not the founding fathers (or Einstein, or Hitler) believed in god: there is a lot of evidence on both sides. Obviously Dawkins is going to see things through atheist-colored glasses; I don’t think you can call that an outright lie.
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/4 "2008-10-16T21:55:13Z")
_Gandhi_.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/5 "2008-10-16T21:57:30Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#):
>
> _Gandhi_.
Although given that it’s written in a different alphabet, there’s only so much you can argue about the spelling.
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/6 "2008-10-16T22:01:49Z")
It’s only written in a different alphabet when it’s written in a different alphabet. It has a standard English spelling as well, with the location of the \ in that spelling actually indicating a significant aspect of its native pronunciation (granted, not an aspect that matters in English phonology, but it’s not as though the Romanization is arbitrary on this point).
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/7 "2008-10-16T22:02:16Z")
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> During a discussion on religion and morality, Dawkins say that Martin Luther King’s leadership of the civil rights movement did not arise from King’s Christian beliefs. Rather, Dawkins says that King based his philosophy of non-violent resistance on the teachings of Ghandi.
It would have been helpful if you had provided a cite here (and, btw, had spelled Gandhi’s name correctly). [Frinstance, this quote from Dawkins’ _The God Delusion_ by historian Stephen Tomkins](http://www.ship-of-fools.com/features/2006/dawkins.html):
> [@](#):
>
> Instead, King was one of those leaders “whose religion was incidental. Although Martin Luther King was a Christian, he derived his philosophy of non-violent civil obedience directly from Gandhi, who was not.”
I’m guessing that that was what you meant.
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> I can’t imagine why Dawkins fails to use his full and correct title
By that logic, you should be calling Dawkins “Professor Richard Dawkins, FRS”, or at least “Dr. Dawkins”. Seriously, you do know that an author isn’t expected to use honorifics for historical figures (or even contemporary public figures), right? You say “Newton rejected the vorticist philosophy of Descartes”, for example, not “Sir Isaac Newton rejected the vorticist philosophy of Monsieur Rene Descartes”.
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> It’s true that King did read the works of Ghandi, did admire Ghandi, and did often quote Ghandi as a source of inspiration. But to say that King’s philosophy was “based on” the teachings of Ghandi is flat-out incorrect. King based everything he said and did on Christian principles.
I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. The question of King’s inspiration for his nonviolent struggle is not an either-or issue, and he may very well have based his philosophy **both** on Christian principles **and** on the teachings of Gandhi (which themselves were significantly influenced by Christian principles, at least in their popular formulation and propagation).
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/8 "2008-10-16T22:10:35Z")
> [@Captain Carrot](#):
>
> Although given that it’s written in a different alphabet, there’s only so much you can argue about the spelling.
No, **Indistinguishable** is absolutely right. The standard _nagari_ script in which North Indian names such as “Gandhi” are written distinguishes very clearly between the aspirated guttural sonant “gh” (as opposed to its nonaspirated form “g”) and the aspirated dental sonant “dh” (as opposed to nonaspirated “d”). The name “Gandhi” as written in its native alphabet contains the latter, **not** the former.
Given that there exists a standard transliteration system for representing _nagari_ in the Roman alphabet, the spelling “Ghandi” is unequivocally wrong.
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/9 "2008-10-16T22:17:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Some time ago I started a thread asking for the justification behind Richard Dawkins’ statement about the death of Alan Turing. Since not much justification was provided, I’m forced to conclude that it was a falsehood. Now some people say that a single outright lie is enough to discredit both a book and its author. While I understand the logic behind this, I don’t quite agree. I’m willing to extend a “we all make mistakes” attitude in cases like this. When an author goofs once, it may be an innocent mistake. When he lies constantly, we can be sure it’s not. With that in mind, I want to look at another Dawkins statement.
Actually, I tend to be of the opinion that each claim requires some form of evidence otherwise before i’m willing to believe it is false. A series of claims, linked as in this case in a book, may be “tainted” in our minds because some are untrue - but that does not mean we get to condemn all other claims in that book out of hand.
For example, i’ve disagreed with you on many occasions. By that justification, I should have dismissed this thread; the taint from those times I have thought you wrong should mean I do not need to read it to know your arguments are incorrect. Yet, I agree with you on this, if **Kimstu’s** quote is representative. I don’t consider King’s Christianity incidental to his actions or philosophy. I’m unconvinced that Dawkins is a liar, on the other hand. Were I to have dismissed you out of hand, I wouldn’t have been able to agree with you now. You point out that to go with a single lie is foolish; likewise, it’s foolish to set a certain limit and say that that is an acceptable amount of wrongness before everything else connected with it is tainted and does not need refuting.
Oh, and as already pointed out, your apparent confusion at why Dawkins does not use a full title for the man is somewhat hypocritical in the face of you failing to use his, or indeed Gandhi’s.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/10 "2008-10-16T23:25:28Z")
What did Dawkins say about the death of Alan Turing?
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/11 "2008-10-16T23:53:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> But to say that King’s philosophy was “based on” the teachings of Ghandi is flat-out incorrect. King based everything he said and did on Christian principles.
Thats simply not true, it is as incorrect to airbrush out influence of Gandhi on MLK as it is to airbrush the influence of Christian teachings.
King BASED his philosophy on the non-violence resistance of Gandhi, and the non-violence inherent in Christain teachings.
I also would like to know what Dawkins said about Turing.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/12 "2008-10-17T00:14:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> I also would like to know what Dawkins said about Turing.
Well, I found [this](http://blog.oup.com/2008/06/dawkins-turing/):
> [@Dawkins in interview](#):
>
> However, Turing committed suicide after the war because he was arrested for homosexual activity, and in those days in Britain, homosexual behavior was illegal. And Turing, who should have been given a medal and a knighthood, feted as the savior of his nation, was instead arrested for homosexuality and was given a choice between a two year prison sentence or being given a course of hormone injections which would have had some kind of feminizing effect and would have made him grow breasts. He chose instead to eat an apple that he’d injected with cyanide. One of the most tragic stories in British science.
I don’t know whether that’s what **ITR champion** is referring to, and if so, I don’t know what he objects to about it, because I don’t know anything about the facts of Turing’s death except vaguely that it’s said to have had something to do with his being persecuted for homosexuality.
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### Author:  [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/13 "2008-10-17T00:30:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Well, I found [this](http://blog.oup.com/2008/06/dawkins-turing/):
>
> I don’t know whether that’s what **ITR champion** is referring to, and if so, I don’t know what he objects to about it, because I don’t know anything about the facts of Turing’s death except vaguely that it’s said to have had something to do with his being persecuted for homosexuality.
Sounds like a pretty acurrate summary of the events leading up to his death. I’m fairly familar with Turing’s life, he was a founding member of the [Computer Science department](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Manchester_School_of_Computer_Science) I went to and have read several descriptions of his life and work (including the excellent [Code Book](http://www.simonsingh.net/The_Code_Book.html))
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/14 "2008-10-17T00:40:45Z")
It’s been a while since I read _The God Delusion_, but I’m pretty sure Dawkins knows and states that King was a Christian who was inspired by his faith. He simply points out that King’s political beliefs had many sources, including the Bible and Gandhi, not to mention the experience of being an oppressed minority, an experience that makes you acutely aware of the value of civil rights.
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### Author:  [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/15 "2008-10-17T01:20:16Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> I also would like to know what Dawkins said about Turing.
[Here’s the thread in question.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=476309)
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### Author:  [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/16 "2008-10-17T11:26:05Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#):
>
> It’s only written in a different alphabet when it’s written in a different alphabet. It has a standard English spelling as well, with the location of the \ in that spelling actually indicating a significant aspect of its native pronunciation (granted, not an aspect that matters in English phonology, but it’s not as though the Romanization is arbitrary on this point).
What, suddenly you’re a prescriptivist? 😉
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/17 "2008-10-17T12:24:16Z")
> [@griffin1977](#):
>
> King BASED his philosophy on the non-violence resistance of Gandhi, and the non-violence inherent in Christain teachings.
“Inherent” in Christian teachings ? Quite a few of the people who have been killed for Christ, and who’ve done the killing in his name over the last 2000-odd years would disagree.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/18 "2008-10-17T12:46:18Z")
I can’t profess to be aware of any Christian revolutionaries who used civil disobedience prior to Gandhi. Post-Gandhi, yes, but not prior. So if the argument is that civil disobedience came from Christian doctrine more than it came from the little bald dude, I think you’re going to have to explain why it never arose of its own from the scripture until ~1955 years after Jesus died.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/19 "2008-10-17T14:46:18Z")
I suspect that Dawkins slightly overstated his case to support his beliefs and that **ITR champion** is slight overstating that point, to make his point.
_::: shrug :::_
I would also respond to both of their statements with a separate observation of my own:
In my perspective,
King was prompted by the injustice he faced, (regardless of religious beliefs), to take some action;
King chose to respond in a non-violent fashion based on his own views of his Christian faith;
King employed tactics for his non-violent protests by studying Gandhi.
(If Dawkins was going to make a serious case that it was Gandhi who provided the complete motivation for King, then we can simply contradict him by pointing back further to King embracing the beliefs of the American Henry David Thoreau.)
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dawkins-on-martin-luther-king-jr/468274/20 "2008-10-17T15:12:42Z")
The tactics employed by the freedom marches ,were certainly those of Gandhi. To stand quietly in the face of those who hate and will hurt requires inner discipline and control. It is a scary experience. To sit and wait for the police to come and abuse you ,is not a thing done on a lark.
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