# "Day of Silence" silliness countered by "Day of Truth" hatefulness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292 "2005-04-14T15:06:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/61 "2005-04-15T14:04:10Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > More that she’s dismissiing religious anti-gay hatre, that because there are soem Christians who are pro-gay rights, that it’s bigoted to mention that others oppose it. REad post 22 wherew I mentioned “some church leaders”, and yet STILL get accused of anti-Christian bigotry. Pointing out that there is a large well-funded, infleuntial wing of American Christians who are opposed to me and mine isn’t bigotry, it’s stating the bleeding obvious. I’d be more impressed if the supposedly tolerant Christians would stop being so concerned about one gay man disrespecting some of their co-religionists, and maybe get active opposing the bigots. You guys are too concerned that David is getting obstreperous and ignoring Goliath. > > Read my latest post in the Christianity and gaybashing thread. Nope. You don’t need to keep defending yourself, **Gobear**. I’m going to repeat **my** last post in that thread here, verbatim, because the message is equally applicable here. Especially I ask that members take into consideration the last paragraph. > [@me](#): > > As I’ve said before, my church, and its predecessor national church within the Orthodox/Catholic system, were claiming to be Christian centuries before Darby ever misread the New Testament or Schaeffer and Falwell created their Unholy Alliance. I don’t plan to give up that term, which summarizes our efforts to follow the teachings and example of Jesus the Christ. It’s important to defining who I am. > > But retaining that term which they have compromised into a Neopharisee judgmentalism makes me complicit in what they say or do claiming to be speaking in its name, unless I should speak out and preach the Gospel of Love, Forgiveness, and Acceptance “Just as I am, without one plea” as vocally as I can. Which is also, be it noted, the task set on me by Jesus Himself in His commands to those who have chosen to follow Him. > > So in a very real sense I am responsible for what they say; they claim to be speaking for me, and it’s incumbent on me to deny that, and say what the real truth of Jesus’s message is. > > As for Gobear’s occasional condemnation of all Christians, I take it with a grain of salt, knowing what he really means. It may be instructive to note that in 1940, FDR was running for reelection. He repeatedly promised, explicitly, that no American serviceman would fight in World War II, already going on in Europe between Britain/France and Nazi Germany, unless we were ourselves attacked. There are at least six documented instances where he said this complete with that italicized clause. Then on one occasion he was speaking in Boston, was challenged by an isolationist, and repeated the promise without the italicized clause. And a few vicious Republicans [not tarring the Republican Party in general here; they were his political opponents at the time] proceeded to attack him for that when Pearl Harbor happened and we did enter the war. If Gobear says a dozen times that he doesnt mean me or Siege or Sol or RT or Baker when he attacks the mean-spirited “Christians” of the Religious Right, and one or two times neglects to tack on that disclaimer, it would be emulating the late Senators Nye and Borah, whom I detest, to take offense at that. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/62 "2005-04-15T14:08:54Z")
Add to that that the more moderate, tolerant Christians HAVE no media voice whatsoever (maybe Sojourner, but that is so small) and it very much appears that the Jesus religion is an anti-gay one–_despite efforrts by individuals and congregations to the contrary_. Jesus preached love (notice how all the intolerant ones have to go back to OT for their “arguments”) and you see how well that has worked in the last 2 millenia. IMO, by the time we “get” this, man will be extinct. Sad. My daughter is participating in DoS–she bought a T-shirt (don’t know what it says) and is worried about being silent for a whole day (that tickled me-I don’t see how she’ll manage that one!). One of her best friends\* has come out this year (they are freshmen). She is doing it for him. I don’ t think she knows that the intent is to show support for victims of gay violence; I’m pretty sure she thinks it to show support for gays, period. To me, it’s a fine point. I am proud that she is standing up for something that she believes in. I am not letting her go downtown Chicago to the rally (she is 15) because I am concerned about “crowd mentality” and also, frankly, potential violence… \*I know this is not enough, but to me, for a freshmen boy to come out is HUGE–it was unheard of when I was in HS in the '80’s. It is good to see, because he has not gotten hell for it (at least from the school, teachers etc). But my kids go to the same HS I did-a huge, Midwestern liberal one in Illinois… ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/63 "2005-04-15T14:12:34Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Not to generalize about these Bible-quoting fundies but I’d bet a lot of these folks are gun-toting 2nd amendment-loving types. > But doesn’t the Bible tell us “Thou Shalt Not Kill” ? > So, unless you are just target shooting, if you hunt aren’t you acting against the word of God, committing an “unnatual” act, etc? It doesn’t say “oh but animals are an exception and you can kill all the ones you want”. > And don’t these folks proudly proclaim how they would use said gun for self-protection, home defense, etc? But The Bible says “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Have they found a proviso that allows certain exceptions when it suits their needs to go against the word of God? > > Before you folks start thinking I am anti-gun - I am not. I own guns myself. I don’t hunt but I don’t condemn those who do. > > It’s religion (especially extremists like these) that I’m not so thrilled about. That’s a nice thought, and frankly I doubt that a lot of the people you are referencing know it, but biblical scholars (even Jewish ones, and you know how much Jewish scholars of the Torah can spend decades discussing the whyness of which vs the whichness of why) pretty much universally agree that the most proper translation of that commandment would be “Thou shall not murder”. It doesn’t apply to self defense or to the killing of animals (how could it? Jews are specifically commanded to make animal sacrifices) or to actions undertaken in time of war. It’s a good idea, tho, I love to catch these guys in contradictions too. That’s just not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/64 "2005-04-15T14:23:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Again? Do you have an example of anyone here hearing (or saying) it the first time? I think he’s just saying that here is yet another instance where the southern baptist church is backing (even if it is subtle) hate and violence toward gays. It may not be every southern baptist, but there are more than enough instances to label it a trend, and more than enough reason to look at southern baptists with a suspicious eye first, and let them prove themselves different than the trend through their actions. And by golly, I think he’s got it! ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/65 "2005-04-15T14:40:03Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > . Jesus preached love (notice how all the intolerant ones have to go back to OT for their “arguments”) Sorry, this irks me, and I see it a lot - this is not meant to be direct at you in particular, eleanorigby. It is interesting that the religion which bases its teaching almost entirely on the ‘Old Testament’, with a few irritating exceptions, is very rarely seen involved in these idiotic hateful attacks on homosexuality or homosexuals. Even the equivalent of fundamentalist Christians - the very Orthodox Jews - do not get involved (I’m sure someone will be along soon enough to point to one instance where they were, but in general I think what I say holds). I hate it that the ‘Old Testament’ is constantly blamed for these people’s hate. The Leviticus passage is a big mess and is undeniably there (though it is hardly the straightforward condemnation of ‘homosexuality’ that is is taken to be, as I believe has been discussed here a number of times), but this passage, even misinterpreted as they read it, is not responsible for these people’s hate. - Daphne ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/66 "2005-04-15T14:54:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Nope. You don’t need to keep defending yourself, **Gobear**. I’m going to repeat **my** last post in that thread here, verbatim, because the message is equally applicable here. Especially I ask that members take into consideration the last paragraph. Did you even bother to read what **Zoe** wrote? **gobear** ’s interpretation of **Zoe** wrote is insane. How the fuck can you tell him he doesn’t have to defend this: > [@gobear](#): > > More that she’s dismissiing religious anti-gay hatre, that because there are soem Christians who are pro-gay rights, that it’s bigoted to mention that others oppose it. When the post he’s responding to said this: > [@gobear](#): > > Since gobear has been a victim of bigotry and discrimination … How the hell is she dismissing anti-gay hate when the first thing she does is acknowlege it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/67 "2005-04-15T15:16:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > For me, that reads more like a political statement than a religious statement. A religion might declare that something is personally detrimental, leading to one’s unwillingness to condone it in oneself. But it takes politics to declare something \*socially \* detrimental, leading to an unwillingness to condone it in others. Sometimes, religious leaders act more like politicians seeking power, rather than like healers seeking salvation. Jesus never called on government to make any law. > > Gobear’s frustration, and his blending of the two, is completely understandable given his experience at the hands of these power grabbers. When Gobear sees the religion, he sees the politics. So would the rest of us if we were its targets. Yup. Unfortunately, the religious right has found it impossible to separate the laws that governs us all from the religion that guides _them personally_. If they were just trying to reinforce religious doctrine on their members, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. But that ain’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/68 "2005-04-15T15:17:16Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > It is interesting that the religion which bases its teaching almost entirely on the ‘Old Testament’, with a few irritating exceptions, is very rarely seen involved in these idiotic hateful attacks on homosexuality or homosexuals. … Are you referring to Judaism? As far as I can tell, it’s in a similar situation to Christianity: large, influential denominations that hate queers, and reasonably large, somewhat less influential denominations that don’t. Viz., for example, the thread on [Jerusalem Pride.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6005575&highlight=jerusalem#post6005575) (How do you get a fundamentalist Israeli Jew to work together with a fundamentalist Palestinian Muslim? Get them to condemn queers together.) As far as I can tell, the reason you hear less spewing from homophobic fundamentalist Jews than from homophobic fundamentalist Christians is that there are fewer Jews with a lesser political voice (in this continent) to begin with. It does seem to me that Judaism doesn’t quite have the all-consuming obsession with homosexuality (or sex in general) that certain Christian leaders and congregations do; but as far as I can tell, they can be quite as homophobic when bestirred to do so. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/69 "2005-04-15T15:18:29Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > …they can be quite as homophobic when bestirred to do so. By “they,” of course, I mean that segment of Orthodox Jews who consider homosexuality abominable. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/70 "2005-04-15T15:42:31Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > By “they,” of course, I mean that segment of Orthodox Jews who consider homosexuality abominable. I admit I don’t really know about the situation in Israel, but I would imagine that you have painted an accurate, if depressing, picture. I dispute that the Orthodox Jews are the ones with the political power in the US, though. In fact, in some sense what I was getting at is that the ultra-Orthodox tend to not be that invested in general politics, and similarly, in general shit-stirring, unlike the fundamentalist Christians in the US. And yes, the fact that there are fewer Jews in general has something to do with it. What I was taking issue with was not the fact that there are hideously homophobic Jews - there most assuredly are - but that it tends to be brought up in these discussions ‘Jesus was love! It’s the OT these hatemongers are quoting from’ which seems to be another tactic of trying to disassociate ‘true Christians’ from these idiot hatemongers. (And incidentally, is somewhat insulting to those of us who might not interpret the ‘OT’ in this light. But I completely understand **gobear** ’s point there - that passage is in the text, and nothing will be gained from pretending it doesn’t exist. Of course, I can (and do! very much do!) think that it need not apply, and was never meant to apply in the way it is so often taken to apply, but I’m not going to blame someone else for it being there. So’re the unpleasant bits about Amalek). I apologise for not being a clear and precise as I might be/have been. - Daphne ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/71 "2005-04-15T15:44:31Z")
What hatefulness? Two groups of people went out and made fools of themselves demonstrating. Unless you disagree with the message of one (or both) of them and automatically label it hatefulness just because you don’t like it, which I’d like to think is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![zetafunction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@zetafunction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zetafunction)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/72 "2005-04-15T15:52:50Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What hatefulness? > > Two groups of people went out and made fools of themselves demonstrating. Unless you disagree with the message of one (or both) of them and automatically label it hatefulness just because you don’t like it, which I’d like to think is not the case. Let’s compare the groups’ messages: Day of Silence: Don’t throw rocks at gay people. Thanks. Day of Truth: CAN’T STOP THE JESUS, BABY! Oh yeah, and gays are going to hell. Please stop equating the two. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/73 "2005-04-15T16:30:00Z")
> [@zetafunction](#): > > Let’s compare the groups’ messages: > > Day of Silence: Don’t throw rocks at gay people. Thanks. > Day of Truth: CAN’T STOP THE JESUS, BABY! Oh yeah, and gays are going to hell. > > Please stop equating the two. And it’s not like the DoT people are spreading the Love of Jesus on some random day. It’s a direct response to the DoSers. So it’s more like this: Day of Silence: It’s wrong to throw rocks at gay people. Thanks. Day of Truth: Nuh uh. It doesn’t take much extrapolation to translate DoT to be a message advocating violence. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/74 "2005-04-15T16:50:34Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > What I was taking issue with was not the fact that there are hideously homophobic Jews - there most assuredly are - but that it tends to be brought up in these discussions ‘Jesus was love! It’s the OT these hatemongers are quoting from’ which seems to be another tactic of trying to disassociate ‘true Christians’ from these idiot hatemongers. Of course that’s wrong. It’s the OP, the Pauline epistles, and post-Christian Byzantine traditions they’re quoting from. Jesus himself, on the other hand, didn’t say Word One about homosexuality, which makes it so weird for them to take all the peripheral stuff (well, not ALL of it, considering those hideous poly-cotton blends they’re always wearing) and attributing it to their faith in Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/75 "2005-04-15T16:54:17Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > REad post 22 wherew I mentioned “some church leaders”, and yet STILL get accused of anti-Christian bigotry. FWIW, though I do think **Zoe** has a point, several “Gobear is mean to christians” threads ago you’ve convinced me that you don’t really have any bad will toward christians. The reason I don’t help defend you is because I’m not sure you’d want me to, but I will if you’d like. > [@tdn](#): > > Day of Silence: It’s wrong to throw rocks at gay people. Thanks. > Day of Truth: Nuh uh. > > It doesn’t take much extrapolation to translate DoT to be a message advocating violence. While that is true, I’d bet that the vast majority of the (student) participants don’t even realize that. It really is a tragedy, in a way. Maybe the organizers don’t even completely realize it, but even so they shouldn’t get any slack for it. They see “Day of Silence” and hear “The purpose is to remember the victims of gaybashing”, except they ignore it, and they think they heard “The purpose is to support gayness!”. Then their brains go “Gay bad! No like Day of Silence!” Then they decide to do something about it. And even though they might not realize what their protest actually means, they still get every bit of blame for promoting violence just for being so stupid. I don’t really blame the kids though. Well, I do, but not so much. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/76 "2005-04-15T16:57:13Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Read **Zoe’s** post mmm? Why? It hardly supports your original claim to which I responded. (bolding added) > [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@gobear](#): > > > > OK, let’s hear it again how anti-gay hate is **in no way** supported by **any** Christian groups… > > Again? Do you have an example of anyone here hearing (or saying) it the first time? Your claim is that someone has pretended that **no** Christian group has ever promoted hatred of gays. That claim, _if it had been made_ would have been patently false. Fred Phelps is a Christian. A twisted hateful creature who has clearly missed the message of the Gospels, but still a Christain who has promoted hatred. Had **Zoe** posted that Phelps and Falwell and Robertson and Dodson and Wildon were not “really” Christians, your point would have some validity. Her actual point was that some Christians address homosexuality in the manner of Jesus, not that no Christians have gotten it wrong. You, however, pulled out your broad brush and splashed your venom all over the thread. Your venom is legitimate. I deny that it gives you the right to make false claims. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/77 "2005-04-15T16:58:45Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Of course that’s wrong. It’s the OP… The O **T**. I’ve been on this board too long. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/78 "2005-04-15T17:01:06Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Sorry, this irks me, and I see it a lot - this is not meant to be direct at you in particular, eleanorigby. > > I hate it that the ‘Old Testament’ is constantly blamed for these people’s hate. The Leviticus passage is a big mess and is undeniably there (though it is hardly the straightforward condemnation of ‘homosexuality’ that is is taken to be, as I believe has been discussed here a number of times), but this passage, even misinterpreted as they read it, is not responsible for these people’s hate. > > - Daphne I understand and apologize for hasty words–what I meant was that anti-gay folks USE the OT as a “rationale” for their hate. Hate is hate. If it were indeed the “fault” of OT that such sentiment exists, Jews would be the most rabid, no? And yet, I hear a deafening silence from them on this issue. So, I perfectly understand your point and agree. One would think that the lack of ire shown by Jews towards gays would provide food for thought to the fundies et al…such is not the case, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/79 "2005-04-15T17:02:08Z")
> [@](#): > > You, however, pulled out your broad brush and splashed your venom all over the thread. Your venom is legitimate. I deny that it gives you the right to make false claim Show me where I “pulled out a broad brush.” And plentiy of people have denied that Phelpps is a"real Christian." ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292/80 "2005-04-15T17:03:33Z")
LOL!!! “Fundamentalists believe that God dictated the OP to Moses…” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/day-of-silence-silliness-countered-by-day-of-truth-hatefulness/299292.md?page=5)