Go read the specific statement to which I objected.
Phelps, yes. All the other gay-bashing Christians? No.
Where is the citation that claims that no Christian group has ever incited gay-bashing?
Sorry-just read thru the rest (gotta preview! :smack: ).
I didn’t realize that there were Jews who are anti-gay, but there’s my ignorance.
The anti-gay Jews certainly don’t have a discernible voice, as yet.
I realize that to use the OT argument might not work here–but is there any way to NOT lump all Christians together? Supposedly they all believe that JC is their Lord and Savior, but we had a thread a ways back where noone could even agree on the basic definition of a Christian.
I don’t like to see any religion tarred with the feathers of a shrill and hateful minority, but then again, why should Christianity be any different from Islam (which is a religion of peace, but one wouldn’t know it from the media and public opinion at present).
Guess I’m trying to say that as wearisome as it is to be accused of hatred and bigotry as a Christian, I am more weary of trying to dice and splice this religion to show its better sides. Can’t really find the words to better articulate my thoughts at this point.
Eleanor and matt, thanks for what you’ve said. I think we are all in agreement. Oh, and
[quote=Polycarp]
“Fundamentalists believe that God dictated the OP to Moses…”
[quote]
is great!
- Daphne
Sigh, sorry about the crap coding.
No one’s accusing you of hatred and bigotry. They’re accusing your religion of promoting hatred and bigotry out of one side of it’s mouth while preaching peace and love out of the other. We all know christianity does some good things. It’s just that, from where I sit, the bad stuff currently outweighs it. The bad stuff does more harm to more people than the good stuff benefits people.
If a person chooses to identify with a group that does more bad than good, then that person should not be surprised if others assume that person embraces all the characteristics associated with that religion - including the despicable and the reprehensible. If you don’t, you are being unrealistic.
Confront the bad element every chance you get. LOUDER. MORE OFTEN. MORE CONSPICUOUSLY. And get the top leaders in your religion to define the rules. And tell them to kick out those who don’t play nice.
Kalhoun -I understand your position and I don’t take complaints against Christianity personally–in fact, one might call me either not a Christian at all or a mighty disaffected one.
What I was trying to say was that I am tired of A saying “X did this! Don’t tell me X isn’t a bgot!” and the pile on to say that 1. not only isX not a bigot, but how dare you or 2. so is Y and that makes it excusable d/t the commonality of the bigotry or 3. you’re just being oversensitive-stfu etc and thenA comes back with their rebuttal of the rebuttal etc ad nauseam …
I would hope that all people, no matter their faith(of lack thereof), would stand up and refuse to countenance any type of bigotry-I do my part. I am sorry it’s not enough. I agree with the OP that these idiots give all Christians a bad name.
Frankly, I think rather than bitching about it, we might be better served to analyze and find out why and how the gay"issue" is being manipulated and used by TPTB. Scapegoat? Common enemy? Diversion? IMO, most of the GOP could not care less about gays etc–but does the whipping up of enmity against them serve another purpose (ie party identity, unity, nostalgia to a “simpler” time when “decency” reigned?)
Answer that and we will know how to fight fire with fire–and win.
The problem is, the “good” christians are allowing the bad guys to hijack their religion. If you believe the “good guys”, there numbers are huge and the bad guys are few but loud. Well, sorry…I don’t understand how a couple bad apples can take control of the biggest religion in this country. “It’s not us! It’s them!” Kick them out. Trademark the name. Something. You are ineffective against evil. (Not you personally, eleanorigby…you know what I mean)
WeirdDave Posting #63
Thanks for the information. As you might have surmised, I am no religious scholar.
Yes, it is funny that the most conservative-minded, religious folks can be so hypocritical - Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Reverend Jim Jones, etc.
Evil is what the press covers. Love, at best, gets a blurb in the Features section. Even at Straight Dope, progress is ignored. When’s the last time you saw a thread about these people? Or these? Or these? I’ve contributed money to one of them. We’re out here. But if the world isn’t going to listen, the politicians that run the churches don’t have to bother listening either. The world is telling them that our voices are not important.
You can take Tammy Faye off your list:
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/june/tammyfaye/
Not everything relating to the popular understanding of Christians is by the act or omission of the Christlike Christians. After all, in this country, the largest Protestant denomination, the United Church, is firm in support of Queer rights, including same-sex marriage. They came to the same hearings I did to advocate equal marriage, and have had intervener status in a number of important court cases. Their action in favour of Queer rights and against bigotry has had very important, concrete results.
What do we hear about? James Dobson (not even Canadian!) funding the anti-ssm forces. We don’t hear about the UC that much at all.
Which, when you think about it, is as expected. After all, when was the last time you heard on the news, “People behaving as they should”?
Oh, yeah. Let’s make turn them into R2-D2 and C-3PO. The funny sidekicks. Good for a laugh, but not much else. :rolleyes: Preferrably, they should be shown as people, regular folks, and not as the flamboyant funny guys that in the minds of the audience will fall under the “secondary characters” section. That’s what happens.
Just saying…
update: my daughter’s Tshirt says “Gay? Fine by me”.
She is wearing it on Tuesday. A friend wore hers to church today and two old ladies refused to shake her hand while passing the peace…
Oy.
This is a complicated issue that I don’t want to get into too much, but the largest Jewish movement in the United States (not the world, although the US has the largest Jewish population in the world, so the number is not insignificant), the Reform Movement, decided to allow gay marriage in 2000. They also have gay rabbis and cantors. The second largest movement is the Conservative Movement, which is more conflicted about gay rights, but not out-and-out homophobic; as I understand it, individual rabbis can make the personal decision to participate in gay unions (although both partners must be Jewish).
However, outside of the United States, this is quite different. Most religious Israeli Jews are Orthodox - the Reform and Conservative Movements there are quite small (and tend to made up of American immigants). Either you’re dati (religious) or hiloni (secular), without a lot of middle ground. There are historical and ethnic reasons for this division - the liberal Jewish movements are Ashkenazi (Eastern European; the Conservative Movement was founded in the US by American Ashkenazim) in origin, and most religious Israelis are Mizrachi (Middle Eastern/North African) and have had very little exposure to those ideas. Even so, Jewish Israelis don’t seem quite as uptight about homosexuality as American Christians. For instance, there aren’t any issues about gays serving in the army.
Thank you! I did not know that.
Rereading this, I realize that this isn’t clear. I should have said officiate instead of participate. I don’t believe that the Conservative Movement currently allows openly gay clergy.
Thank you so much for going to the trouble to explain this to everyone, especially the situation outside of the US. What you pointed out explains a lot about why the Jews in the US aren’t involved in this homophobic crap: most of them are Reform or Conservative, which either takes an openly positive or a ‘local custom’ perspective (like the Episcopalians) on the issue.
As a side note, I strongly recommend the documentary Trembling Before God about gay Orthodox Jews and the awful struggles they go through. One of the interviewees, IIRC, is an openly gay ‘Modern Orthodox’ rabbi.
For devout Orthodox men who are gay, in some sense their struggle is even more complicated than for devout Christians; Christians have the (unpleasant though it surely is) respected option of celibacy, but for an Orthodox Jewish man, one of the most important things he is supposed to do is ‘be fruitful and multiply’ - celibacy is not really an option.
- Daphne
DaphneBlack, your mentioning Trembling Before G-d and all this talk about how anti-gay jews are or aren’t reminded me of something: Some time ago (more than a year, I’m sure), we had an Orthodox Jewish poster claim that Orthodox Judaism was completely free of homosexuality. I mean, they honestly made the claim that there was no such thing as a gay Orthodox Jew. Does anyone remember who that was?
I think that was IzzyR. That was a laugh, that was…
In my experience, which is admittedly limited, Orthodox Jews don’t really talk about homosexuality much. I introduced a gay friend to my Modern Orthodox roommate (who grew up totally surrounded by Orthodox culture in New Jersey). Afterwards, she told me she’d never met a gay person before. I told her she had, she just wasn’t aware of it.
That particular gay friend was, in fact, raised Orthodox - and not Modern Orthodox. He grew up in Brooklyn speaking Yiddish. His dad is a rabbi. He was pretty resigned to being Reform or Reconstructionist because they’re the only movements that accept openly gay people, but I don’t think he was particularly happy about it. Very difficult situation.