# Dayton Police Dept lowering test standards to recruit more blacks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455 "2011-03-12T22:09:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/41 "2011-03-15T11:47:32Z")
There is only one good approach: Establish race-based Affirmative Action and recognize the need for society to have diversity. We found ways to lower physical standards for firefighters to be more inclusive of women, and there are ways to lower academic standards for blacks so they can be represented across as broad a spectrum as possible. There is no evidence whatsoever that this exam itself is biased if favor of a race category. The blunt truth is that blacks underperform most other groups on any standardized paper exam. There is no evidence whatsoever that people who fall into the Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity group of “black” are able to perform equal to other SIRE groups such as asians or whites even when given equal educational opportunity. Scores in every school system in the US–in the world, for that matter–have shown the same approximate rankings of those groups, with nothing more than trivial exceptions here and there. At higher levels of academic achievement–say, quantitative PhD programs or Medicine or Law–the performance differences have been immutable to all efforts to eliminate them. At lower levels–from grade school through college–blacks as a group always underperform other groups, even if family wealth, parental education or academic opportunity are accounted for. It’s true that a paper exam does not represent the entire qualification needed for a job, although it’s also true that as a screening tool for baseline competence it can be useful. However in some fields–and policing is one example–diversity based on ordinary social groupings is a critical element. We need to accept that there are broad and (so far, despite all the efforts everywhere in the world) immutable performance differences among SIRE categories, that diversity has a greater good for society than pure academic ability, and that Affirmative Action, with one standard for blacks and a higher standard for everyone else is the only way we’ll get the most qualified people from each category into those work fields. If we applied, for example, the same standards for black applicants to Medical School as we do for Asians, we would have almost no black physicians, even if we normalized for opportunity of preparatory education before taking the qualifying exams (MCATS). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/42 "2011-03-15T13:03:22Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > There is no evidence whatsoever that this exam itself is biased if favor of a race category. The blunt truth is that blacks underperform most other groups on any standardized paper exam. Your two statements contradict each other. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/43 "2011-03-15T13:06:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Your two statements contradict each other. Obviously they do not. If a straightforward test yields differential results for different groups, there is no contradiction. I can’t run the 40 yard dash as quickly as most NFL players. The 40 yard dash is not biased as an indication of footspeed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/44 "2011-03-15T13:20:22Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Compounding this is the fact that these kinds of tests are generally written by non-whites, with non-white cultural references. Strip those out, or add questions with black cultural references and lets see how everyone does. > > You want those white officers to know about black culture don’t you? I mean that’s the disproportionate source of crime isn’t it? Shouldn’t they understand the culture they’ll be policing? As noted previously, I believe it’s appropriate to consider race as a factor in hiring police officers. That said… how many questions on this test contain a cultural bias? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/45 "2011-03-15T14:54:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As noted previously, I believe it’s appropriate to consider race as a factor in hiring police officers. > > That said… how many questions on this test contain a cultural bias? I don’t know how you can seriously justify hiring someone based on skin color. Can you honestly say this is appropriate for any city to deny a person of color because of demographics? Do you think it’s appropriate to dump most of the black police officers in crack town because that’s demographically populated as such? I can’t think of a single job where education doesn’t improve upon it’s success. What the DOJ is doing is an insult to everybody who ever went to school and worked hard to learn and improve themselves. It is blatant discrimination. There is nothing subtle about it. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/46 "2011-03-15T15:38:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That said… how many questions on this test contain a cultural bias? Informed speculation would be, on the close order of “none” but don’t wait for a definitive answer or cite because the person making the assertion has not seen the test, quite clearly and was fishing out a stock reply to embarrassing outcome patterns on standardized tests. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/47 "2011-03-15T16:20:07Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Obviously they do not. If a straightforward test yields differential results for different groups, there is no contradiction. > > I can’t run the 40 yard dash as quickly as most NFL players. > > The 40 yard dash is not biased as an indication of footspeed. The test is not an indicator, it’s a qualifier. As a qualification for the NFL, footspeed is a bias not favoring you. The NFL is biased. They prefer faster people. A minimum height requirement would be biased against short people. It’s not a difficult concept. But this case is even more apparent. Chief claims one group of people do not score well on tests, but tests are the qualification for a job (a job that does not involve test taking either). It is biased against people who do poorly on tests. Some biases are reasonable, as with the NFLs bias against slow people. If the Chief is correct in his statement about test scores, then the question here is whether the bias is reasonable, not whether it exists. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/48 "2011-03-15T16:54:41Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Also, what you say is untrue. Test scores ARE!!! the best most unbiased most reliable measurement that the world has, which is why every school does testing, every employer and every government agency relies on testing, and everyone checks the grades of applicants. Test scores are is the best measurement and the best predictor of performance in nearly every country in the world. > > . Test scores are used because tests are easier to score. The best metric for predicting future performance is past peformance. [http://chronicle.com/article/High-School-Grades-Are-Best/39072](http://chronicle.com/article/High-School-Grades-Are-Best/39072) Test scores can be useful as part of a range of evaluative tools. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/49 "2011-03-15T16:58:12Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Informed speculation would be, on the close order of “none” but don’t wait for a definitive answer or cite because the person making the assertion has not seen the test, quite clearly and was fishing out a stock reply to embarrassing outcome patterns on standardized tests. “Informed speculation” would be that you are _also_ pulling your arguments out of your ass. None of us have seen the test. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/50 "2011-03-15T17:02:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As noted previously, I believe it’s appropriate to consider race as a factor in hiring police officers. > > That said… how many questions on this test contain a cultural bias? I said “generally”. I don’t know the specifics here. But if I have to choose between bias as a source of differential performance and a systemic problem with blacks taking the test, I’d want to eliminate bias first. If the questions they’re missing are randomly distributed taking into account question difficulty, then it’s probably reasonable to look at what else is different with black applicants that might contribute to poorer test performance. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/51 "2011-03-15T17:06:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The test is not an indicator, it’s a qualifier. As a qualification for the NFL, footspeed is a bias not favoring you. The NFL is biased. They prefer faster people. A minimum height requirement would be biased against short people. It’s not a difficult concept. > > But this case is even more apparent. Chief claims one group of people do not score well on tests, but tests are the qualification for a job (a job that does not involve test taking either). It is biased against people who do poorly on tests. > > Some biases are reasonable, as with the NFLs bias against slow people. If the Chief is correct in his statement about test scores, then the question here is whether the bias is reasonable, not whether it exists. Wrong. The 40 yard dash is not biased. It is a very reliable indicator of speed. The people who **use** the 40 yard dash time have a preference in favor of those whose speed is fast. The allegation I was addressing was that the “\*\*exam itself is biased in favor of a [particular] race category.” No one’s shown any indication that it (the exam, remember) is – that there are trick questions using secret white pig Latin, that different people got different versions of the test or were given less time to finish or that the exam does not to some greater or lesser degree accurately gauge some combination of knowledge, intelligence, problem solving, concentration, etc. Someone can take issue with whether and the extent to which these qualities and the resulting measurements are a reasonable proxy for or predictor of ability to do a demanding job that requires, if nothing else, a lot of paperwork and concentration and communication skills. I am with those who say standardized tests are the least-worse gauge we have for determining “general smarts,” which are a big component of every job. But the allegation (which I was addressing) that it is self-contradictory to say the **exam** was not biased although results among ethnic groups are disparate – that’s an attack on the exam itself. The equivalent would be saying “the 40 yard dash is biased because the guys running the stopwatch have a harder time seeing the black guy when he crosses the line, or hate white guys and arbitrarily add a second to their times.” And there’s no evidence of that kind of bias-within-the-test here. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/52 "2011-03-15T17:17:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Informed speculation” would be that you are _also_ pulling your arguments out of your ass. None of us have seen the test. The difference is that I admit to it. And his/her “generally culturally biased test” is still just made up. I’ve taken many, many, standardized tests and can assure you that unless they were in Spanish, there’s no way I recall or can even imagine how my cultural background (other than, educated and not ign’nt as Chris Rock might say) gave me some unique cultural edge (or disadvantage). I’m trying hard to think of how you **would** build in a bias to the types of questions on just about every standardized or vocational test I’ve ever taken. Here’s the kind of questions I’d expect to see. [http://www.nypd2.org/recruit/tutorials/Tutorials.swf](http://www.nypd2.org/recruit/tutorials/Tutorials.swf) Oh, and what the news story doesn’t mention is any facts evidencing that the massive Justice Department witchhunt, er, investigation identified a single specific “biased test question” (still struggling with that concept). Again highly informed speculation tells me that that’s 'cause they couldn’t and were stuck with the circular “disparate impact of outcomes proves bias.” “Bias in the air of the test,” if you will, with apologies to _Palsgraff_ . . . . ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/53 "2011-03-15T17:19:02Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > But the allegation (which I was addressing) that it is self-contradictory to say the **exam** was not biased although results among ethnic groups are disparate – that’s an attack on the exam itself. The equivalent would be saying “the 40 yard dash is biased because the guys running the stopwatch have a harder time seeing the black guy when he crosses the line, or hate white guys and arbitrarily add a second to their times.” And there’s no evidence of that kind of bias-within-the-test here. [http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/sat](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/sat) If a test like the SAT which is rigorously examined has bias issues, I’m gonna guess that police exams which aren’t tested as much probably don’t escape them either. > [@](#): > > While the studies found gains for both black and white students on parts of the SAT, the white advantage is larger such that the studies suggest scores for black students are being held down by the way the test is scored and that a shift to favor the more difficult questions would benefit black test-takers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/54 "2011-03-15T17:32:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t know how you can seriously justify hiring someone based on skin color. Can you honestly say this is appropriate for any city to deny a person of color because of demographics? I think it might be appropriate, although it would be a high burden to reach. The rationale for hiring officers of color is the historic distrust communities of color may have in dealing with law enforcement, and the same factor doesn’t exist in the same strength in the reverse. So I’d be open to hearing about some community that had legitimate community policiing needs that would exclude officers of color, but I’d be highly skeptical of such a claim at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/55 "2011-03-15T17:41:17Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > [http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/sat](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/21/sat) > > If a test like the SAT which is rigorously examined has bias issues, I’m gonna guess that police exams which aren’t tested as much probably don’t escape them either. “Bias issues?” > [@](#): > > But what Freedle found in 2003 has now been confirmed independently by the new study: that some kinds of verbal questions have a DIF for black and white students. On some of the easier verbal questions, the two studies found that a DIF favored white students. On some of the most difficult verbal questions, the DIF favored black students. Freedle’s theory about why this would be the case was that easier questions are likely reflected in the cultural expressions that are used commonly in the dominant (white) society, so white students have an edge based not on education or study skills or aptitude, but because they are most likely growing up around white people. The more difficult words are more likely to be learned, not just absorbed. Is that actually cultural bias, or a reflection of the fact that the correct expressions are not being used in the minority community? That is, the paragraph above suggests that we ought to view these expressions as only arbitrarily “correct,” and testing the students’ knowledge of them is not an intended result of the test. But I contend that the dominant (white) society in this example is more likely to be speaking what we’ve agreed is proper English, and making the expressions at issue fair fodder for testing. My dad made a big deal of only speaking English at home, because he wanted his kids to learn English and not have to struggle with issues like this (to the extent possible, because my dad always had a heavy accent and despite his best efforts would mess up certain things, mostly verbs). ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/56 "2011-03-15T18:03:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is that actually cultural bias, or a reflection of the fact that the correct expressions are not being used in the minority community? That is, the paragraph above suggests that we ought to view these expressions as only arbitrarily “correct,” and testing the students’ knowledge of them is not an intended result of the test. > > But I contend that the dominant (white) society in this example is more likely to be speaking what we’ve agreed is proper English, and making the expressions at issue fair fodder for testing. > > My dad made a big deal of only speaking English at home, because he wanted his kids to learn English and not have to struggle with issues like this (to the extent possible, because my dad always had a heavy accent and despite his best efforts would mess up certain things, mostly verbs). If crime occurs disproportionately in the black neighborhoods, it seems to me that you’d want officers that speak “improper English”. Language influences how we think. I’d certainly want “native speakers” on the job. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/57 "2011-03-15T18:26:34Z")
While I agree that test scores aren’t “everything” They may provide a good idea of the candidate’s ability to do any of the following: Read / comprehend instructions Read a map Understand and follow department procedures Be able to file a proper incident report The last two of the above would play greatly into being able to successfully convict a perp. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/58 "2011-03-15T18:45:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it might be appropriate, although it would be a high burden to reach. > > The rationale for hiring officers of color is the historic distrust communities of color may have in dealing with law enforcement, and the same factor doesn’t exist in the same strength in the reverse. So I’d be open to hearing about some community that had legitimate community policiing needs that would exclude officers of color, but I’d be highly skeptical of such a claim at the outset. You started your paragraph incorrectly, It should read: The rationale for racial discrimination is: ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/59 "2011-03-15T20:30:08Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > While I agree that test scores aren’t “everything” They may provide a good idea of the candidate’s ability to do any of the following: > > Read / comprehend instructions > Read a map > Understand and follow department procedures > Be able to file a proper incident report > > The last two of the above would play greatly into being able to successfully convict a perp. The problem with standardized tests is that we rely on them to measure a presumably correlated activity when we can actually have a “read a map” test that includes a requirement to follow instructions. That’s often not done because it’s “harder” to score or more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455/60 "2011-03-15T21:48:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Black people are no smarter or stupider than white people. > > If black people are not becoming cops the problem is not that black people are too stupid to pass the test. > > The problem lies elsewhere. I’d venture to guess most black people learn to fear the police (rightly or wrongly). As such they are not prone to applying to become cops. A meta analysis by Philip L Roth showed about a 1 standard deviation difference in average scores. This is why if they want proportional representation they need to handicap some groups, or make the test easier overall. [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-74812158.html](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-74812158.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dayton-police-dept-lowering-test-standards-to-recruit-more-blacks/574455.md?page=4)