# DC Comics Event - Identity Crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692 "2004-04-29T16:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/21 "2004-05-04T16:45:37Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > [Details (& some possible spoilers) here. And don’t call me Shirley.](http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12393) Aw, crap. Thanks for the link… sigh. Man, if Kyle swaps places with Hal and becomes the Spectre, I’ll be ticked off. And the only way I’m going to tolerate Hal’s return is if the Corps comes back too. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/22 "2004-05-04T16:56:42Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Snapper: But he doesn’t know anyone’s ID, so it wouldn’t be all that earth-shaking. > > One other bit of speculation: the coffin may be symbolic–what if Sue (or whoever) was kidnapped, tortured (yuk) and spilled everyone’s ID. S/he doesn’t have to actually die, although the threat of death is there hence the coffin. Snapper doesn’t know any ID’s? He hung out with the Justice League, mentored Young Justice, and was the best pal of an Android from the Future, and has no knowledge of any secret IDs? I’m skeptical. He should know Hal, Barry, Dinah, and some of J’onn’s, at least. As for the coffin … well, we’ve been promised a death in the first issue. Interesting possible tie-ins to this arc that I’ve heard so far : Relaunch of Firestorm Possible Return of Hal Jordan Wally’s confrontation with the classic JL in the most recent Flash issues. (Which also interestingly center around the Spectre’s attempts to give Wally back his secret ID) Black Canary’s tussle with an influential senator and Oracle suffering a hack-attack over in Birds of Prey. So, basically, a year from now, the only thing distinguishing the post-Crisis DCU from the pre-Crisis DCU will be Robin’s gender and Barry Allen’s corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/23 "2004-05-04T17:10:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > So, basically, a year from now, the only thing distinguishing the post-Crisis DCU from the pre-Crisis DCU will be Robin’s gender and Barry Allen’s corpse. They’re doing what to Tim now? He’s my favorite Robin, and doing great in Teen Titans. I’d hate to see him go. And Barry didn’t leave a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/24 "2004-05-04T17:33:29Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > They’re doing what to Tim now? He’s my favorite Robin, and doing great in Teen Titans. I’d hate to see him go. > > And Barry didn’t leave a corpse. A Metaphorical corpse. As for Tim, at least temporarily, the shoes of Robin will be filled by Spoiler - if info I have is to be believed. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/25 "2004-05-04T18:31:36Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > A Metaphorical corpse. > > As for Tim, at least temporarily, the shoes of Robin will be filled by > > Spoiler - if info I have is to be believed. Best use of the spoiler tag ever. Gotta be temporary, if true. Tim’s locked into Teen Titans (even the cartoon, which is a helluva character shield), and she’s a nobody. If they were going to have a female Robin, they’d use What’sherface from DKR (brought over to regular continuity), or rename Batgirl, or at least create an original character without the baggage (Robin as teen mother, it ain’t right) and a tailor-made origin. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/26 "2004-05-04T18:57:01Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Best use of the spoiler tag ever. > > Gotta be temporary, if true. Tim’s locked into Teen Titans (even the cartoon, which is a helluva character shield), and she’s a nobody. Thanks. And there is some precedent for her… she’s been hanging around the cave some in the last couple years. I have no idea how long the change will last though. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/27 "2004-05-05T02:14:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Snapper doesn’t know any ID’s? He hung out with the Justice League, mentored Young Justice, and was the best pal of an Android from the Future, and has no knowledge of any secret IDs? I’m skeptical. > > He should know Hal, Barry, Dinah, and some of J’onn’s, at least. Ok, _Pre_ Crisis, I can prove he didn’t. While individual pairs of JLAers knew who was who (Batman/Superman, Barry/Hal), the JLA didn’t reveal their identities to each other en masse until JLofA #122 (which was a flashback issue—and the very first comic I ever bought off the rack which is one reason it sticks so firmly in my memory. You never forget your first! 😛 ). We don’t know _exactly_ when it flashed back to, but it was post Martian Manhunter, so post #71 and pre Ollie’s bearded/Adams revamp, so pre #75. Snapper betrayed and left the League in #77. Given that he hadn’t shown up in months I can’t believe they’d reveal their identies to him. After that, there was a brief (uncomfortable) reunion in #114 and when he temporarily turned bad in the brilliant #149-50, there was no hint he knew. Post Crisis, we haven’t seen enough of him to know, but pre-Crisis there’s no way. And since the official unmasking didn’t happen until JLA um…49 or 50 a few issues after the"Ras Al Gul gets ahold of Bat’s contingency plans" arc. of the current series, it seems very, _very_ unlikely that Snapper knows. He was long gone by then. I still have a horrible suspicion it’s Sue. The really ugly thing is that it would drive home the lesson that Supes always said in the Silver Age “It would put you in too much danger if I married you, Lois”. Um…and the “Identity” part of the title makes sense too. Given Hal’s brainwipe of the world, Elongated Man is one of the _very_ few heroes with a public ID. Hence, everyone knows his…identity. Ew. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/28 "2004-05-05T02:34:43Z")
**Fenris** , up until now I was reading your comments, muttering, “I have no earthly idea why this man is nattering on about the Elongated Man and Sue Dibny when my brilliant Manhunter deduction has so much more panache.” And then you go and gut the Snapper Carr speculations, then proceed to point out a little heralded fact and come up with an extremely compelling storyline in like, three sentences. YOU. DA. MAN!! And franky your Pre-Crisis knowledge makes me wish classic superhero questions came up on Millionaire, because you’d be MY lifeline, anytime. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/29 "2004-05-05T03:24:17Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Fenris** , up until now I was reading your comments, muttering, “I have no earthly idea why this man is nattering on about the Elongated Man and Sue Dibny when my brilliant Manhunter deduction has so much more panache.” And then you go and gut the Snapper Carr speculations, then proceed to point out a little heralded fact and come up with an extremely compelling storyline in like, three sentences. YOU. DA. MAN!! > > And franky your Pre-Crisis knowledge makes me wish classic superhero questions came up on Millionaire, because you’d be MY lifeline, anytime. Thank you! 🙂 And while I like your Manhunter idea (I’d rather it be the Manhunter than Sue, frankly and it _does_ have more panache), A) Manhunter is _much_ more saleable in today’s market. He sold a surprisingly mediocre series (given that one of my all-time favorites, John Ostrander wrote it, it never…jelled for me…it’s like he was trying to get a grasp on the character) which lasted for…what? 25 issues? In today’s economy, that’s pretty good. B) He has much more face-recognition, C) Outside of a few old fogies (gad! 😉 ) no-one cares about Ralph and Sue (Ralph hasn’t had a solo story snce…what? 1990? 1985?) and no-one can really write them correctly anymore (Whatshisname…the guy who wrote Starman excluded…his Ralph & Sue rocked) nowdays anyway (ditto with Adam Strange). Sigh. _Man_, I hope I’m wrong. Regarding the Hal/Spectre thing, I never cared for the idea. If you look on rec.arts.comics.dc.universe in “Google Groups” you can see that the “Hal as Spectre” thing started there, at least 2-3 years before DC actually did it…but it was a _joke_ (The Specter’s big, green and pissed off, Hal-actus is big, green and pissed off–just kill off Hal-actus and you get two, TWO, **TWO** characters for the price of one!) Note to DC: _We were kidding!_ (and really, we were kidding about the Suicide Squid too!). I’m glad Hal’s going to be fixed, but it’s sounding more and more like it’s at the expense of Kyle…and that would be stupid. Why on earth piss off the Kyle fans like they did the Hal fans? It’s possible to keep both groups happy. _No-one_ insists on either character being the _only_ GL out there (now that Kevin Dooley’s gone). Undo the dreadful Emerald Twilight, bring Hal back as a hero (so he never _did_ any of the Emerald Twilight stuff–which never made sense on a number of levels) and keep them _both_ around. It’s really not all that confusing…they wear different clothes after all. Regarding Robin, it’s supposed to be long-term. The reasoning for Tim taking a break (and Willingham is being _very_ good about not breaking other’s toys, so Tim’s perfectly able to come back with no ill-effects when the next writer takes over) are quite reasonable. In addition, I’ve always liked Spoiler–it’s refreshing to see a character who’s costumed to _prevent_ crime rather than reacting to being victimized and when it comes down to it Bill “Fables” Willingham is writing it so you _know_ it’s good. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/30 "2004-05-05T12:40:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Ok, _Pre_ Crisis, I can prove he didn’t. > > … > > I still have a horrible suspicion it’s Sue. The really ugly thing is that it would drive home the lesson that Supes always said in the Silver Age “It would put you in too much danger if I married you, Lois”. > > … > > Um…and the “Identity” part of the title makes sense too. Given Hal’s brainwipe of the world, Elongated Man is one of the _very_ few heroes with a public ID. Hence, everyone knows his…identity. Interesting notes on Snapper… but as you say, we just don’t know enough of the post-Crisis JLA history. I wish they’d do a JLA : Year Two miniseries. As for Sue - the trouble is that she’s so insigificant. She and Ralph aren’t high-profile at all. Aside from Formerly Known as the Justice League, and a cameo shot in one of the latest Flash issues, I can’t think of any place I’ve seen either of them in ages. And she’s really not that close to the original JLA … Black Canary, Hal, and Aquaman never had much interaction with her… she had some contact with J’onn when they were working at separate branches of the JLI… and of course, Barry and Ralph were great pals - but that’s still no connection to the original team as a whole. Now, Snapper, on the other hand, had a lengthy supporting role in Hourman and then a less lengthy supporting role in Young Justice. As for the Identity in the title… obviously identities are at stake in the story, but one can connect that element with almost any victim one cares to name. Hey, maybe it’s Triumph? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/31 "2004-05-05T14:01:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Um…and the “Identity” part of the title makes sense too. Given Hal’s brainwipe of the world, Elongated Man is one of the _very_ few heroes with a public ID. Hence, everyone knows his…identity. Years and years and years ago there was this, I guess “interview” of the JLA, where Ralph is asked if he’s worried about Sue being attacked or hurt by his enemies, as he doesn’t have a secret ID. He says, “No, if anyone ever tried to hurt my Sue, I would stretch my elongated fingers down his throat and rip out…” The quote ended. I always thought of that…as a deterrent of sorts. I guess we’ll see if it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/32 "2004-05-06T01:22:42Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Interesting notes on Snapper… but as you say, we just don’t know enough of the post-Crisis JLA history. I wish they’d do a JLA : Year Two miniseries. The one thing we _do_ know is that they did _not_ reveal their IDs in “Year One” and that they _did_ reveal them around JLA #50 (give or take), which was after Snapper left. > [@](#): > > As for Sue - the trouble is that she’s so insigificant. She and Ralph aren’t high-profile at all. Aside from Formerly Known as the Justice League, and a cameo shot in one of the latest Flash issues, I can’t think of any place I’ve seen either of them in ages. And she’s really not that close to the original JLA … Black Canary, Hal, and Aquaman never had much interaction with her… she had some contact with J’onn when they were working at separate branches of the JLI… and of course, Barry and Ralph were great pals - but that’s still no connection to the original team as a whole. That’s a good point and I can’t refute it. > [@](#): > > Hey, maybe it’s Triumph? 😉 I can do you better: maybe it’s Vibe (or worse, his little brother Reverb)…both of whom talk like Charo. Talking to my local comic dealer, he’s convinced that the corpse is Kyle. He makes a convincing case: 1. No GL on the cover. 2. Hal’s new series AND a quote from the new writer (I forgot the name) to the effect of “Hal will be back, as will the GL corps. I’ll have every GL ever to play with! Um…except one.” 3. Killing one of the top 5 known characters is certainly an important death. 4. (I quote someone else in the store who overheard this and joined in) “Plus, Kyle’s just an idiot. I mean, he lost his ring to _Validus_. Let’s face it…snuffing the guy is no harder than offering him a handful of magic beans for his ring and then just shoot him when he hands it over.” I don’t agree, personally (unless it’s Kyle under Marz/Dooley) but it _was_ a funny line. Then the anti-Kyle guy who butted in said (more or less) “Anyway you’re both wrong. It’s Lois. Too many people know who she is, the “married Superman” thing is stale, Chuck Austin (who’s writing one of the Sup books\*) _hates_ Lois, plus, _nothing_ would shake the DCU more. Killing the Martian Manhunter? Who cares? Killing Superman? Been there, done that. But Lois??” Me? I don’t buy it. The marketing guys had a cow when Robin was killed and made O’Neill bring Robin back (very much against O’Neil’s will) and Lois is probably almost as marketable as Robin, so there’s like zero chance that he’ll be allowed to snuff Lois. But it’s a creepily logical thought. So…I dunno. But I’ll say this: if the choices are 1) Sue, 2) Jonn, 3) Snapper 4) Lois and 5) Kyle, then my vote is bye-bye Kyle (but I prefer “None of the above”. ) \*along with about 200 other titles a month, none of them actually _good_. To me, Chuck Austin is a good, competent writer at best. But that’s _all_. “Competent”. He’s no Gerry Conway leaving broken, crapped upon books in his wake, but lord he’s not good. I don’t know anyone who goes out of their way to buy a book with his name on it a-la Gaiman or Busiek (although they don’t avoid him either) so how’s he managing to write like 40 books a month including some cherry titles? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/33 "2004-05-06T03:05:32Z")
Fenris: > [@](#): > > 1. (I quote someone else in the store who overheard this and joined in) "Plus, Kyle’s just an idiot. I mean, he lost his ring to Validus. Really? When did he ever face Validus? I’m a big Legion man, and I don’t remember that. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/34 "2004-05-06T03:44:06Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m a big Legion man, and I don’t remember that. Speaking of the Legion, I wonder whether the return of the GLC will have any effect on them. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/35 "2004-05-06T03:47:45Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Speaking of the Legion, I wonder whether the return of the GLC will have any effect on them. Man, I hope not. Most of the time now I think the safest possible thing for the Legion writers to do is work to avoid _any_ references to the contemporary DC universe so that when the next Crisis/Zero Hour/Whatever rolls around they won’t be screwed over quite as badly. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/36 "2004-05-06T03:48:30Z")
A point to consider: Is whoever-it-is actually going to, you know, _stay_ dead? I realize that Marvel is a lot worse on this score than is DC, but then again, Superman. And characters in comics in general seem to have a hard time staying dead. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/37 "2004-05-06T11:22:24Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Fenris:Really? When did he ever face Validus? I’m a big Legion man, and I don’t remember that. I don’t know. I didn’t ask but I don’t remember it myself either. The only thing I could think of is during some crossover event or other (maybe whichever one left Inferno stranded in the past?). Maybe he was just using hyperbole…he certainly seemed…um…passionate about the topic of Kyle. 😛 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/38 "2004-05-06T12:07:49Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Then the anti-Kyle guy who butted in said (more or less) “Anyway you’re both wrong. It’s Lois. Too many people know who she is, the “married Superman” thing is stale, Chuck Austin (who’s writing one of the Sup books) _hates_ Lois, plus, _nothing_ would shake the DCU more. Killing the Martian Manhunter? Who cares? Killing Superman? Been there, done that. But Lois??” > > Me? I don’t buy it. The marketing guys had a cow when Robin was killed and made O’Neill bring Robin back (very much against O’Neil’s will) and Lois is probably almost as marketable as Robin, so there’s like zero chance that he’ll be allowed to snuff Lois. But it’s a creepily logical thought. > > So…I dunno. But I’ll say this: if the choices are 1) Sue, 2) Jonn, 3) Snapper 4) Lois and 5) Kyle, then my vote is bye-bye Kyle (but I prefer “None of the above”.) I actually agree that the death of Lois Lane would be one hellava ballsy move – but a storyline like that in the current political climate strikes me as a bit unlikely. While the nation is at war, soldiers/reporters dying in Iraq, reports of POW abuse in a presidential election year, does anyone want to see Superman’s WIFE killed by one of his enemies? It would be picked up in the national press, and unless it was a very, VERY well written storyline (I’m talking Eisner award winning-quality writing here), it would be roundly condemned. I mean, we all know there would be some long drawn out grieving process by Superman/Clark before her eventual resurrection, but this kind of storyline would make higher-ups balk before giving a greenlight. Too dicey, no dice. Made for an interesting five minutes of speculation, tho. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692/39 "2004-05-06T12:28:05Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I actually agree that the death of Lois Lane would be one hellava ballsy move – but a storyline like that in the current political climate strikes me as a bit unlikely. While the nation is at war, soldiers/reporters dying in Iraq, reports of POW abuse in a presidential election year, does anyone want to see Superman’s WIFE killed by one of his enemies? It would be picked up in the national press, and unless it was a very, VERY well written storyline (I’m talking Eisner award winning-quality writing here), it would be roundly condemned. I mean, we all know there would be some long drawn out grieving process by Superman/Clark before her eventual resurrection, but this kind of storyline would make higher-ups balk before giving a greenlight. Too dicey, no dice. > > Made for an interesting five minutes of speculation, tho. Here’s a thing - in the latest issue of Superman - we’ve apparently jumped forward a year - he apparently has just come back form deep space where he was bailing out Kyle from a situation… and I got the distinct impression that Lois was one of the people who’d vanished in the meantime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-comics-event-identity-crisis/242692.md?page=1)