# DC Court of Appeals rules against Trump Immunity, SCOTUS Makes a Different Decision **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [February 6, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188 "2024-02-06T15:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/461 "2024-07-08T18:36:56Z")
Isn’t the ruling more or less consistent with the established principle of sovereign immunity? That outside of some clearly delineated exceptions you can’t sue the government for carrying out the lawful functions of the government? If it’s a core authority explicity granted by the constitution, it’s _ipso facto_ legal. As I see it, the only real controversy is over the scope of the president’s oversight of the executive branch. And that’s not a new controversy- there was the [Impeachment of Andrew Johnson - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson) over his claiming that the [Tenure of Office Act (1867) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenure_of_Office_Act_(1867)) was an unconstitutional intrusion on the executive’s authority. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/462 "2024-07-08T18:44:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If it’s a core authority explicity granted by the constitution What are those core powers, explicitly? If Trump shoots Biden on 5th ave, is that covered by any of his core powers? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/463 "2024-07-08T19:38:06Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > If it’s a core authority explicity granted by the constitution > > What are those core powers, explicitly? The decision explicitly mentioned “for example, the power to issue pardons, veto legislation, recognize ambassadors, and make appointments.” ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/464 "2024-07-08T19:46:27Z")
Where, I’m not seeing it? I want to make sure I’m looking at the same thing you are. In any case, if Trump shoots Biden on 5th ave, is that covered by any of his core powers and/or is it an official act? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/465 "2024-07-08T19:51:35Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Where, I’m not seeing it? I want to make sure I’m looking at the same thing you are. > **[Justices rule Trump has some immunity from prosecution - SCOTUSblog](https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-some-immunity-from-prosecution/)** > > This article was updated on July 1 at 3:32 p.m. In a historic decision, a divided Supreme Court on Monday ruled that former presidents can never be prosecuted for actions relating to the core powers of their office, and that there is at least a... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/466 "2024-07-08T20:00:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Isn’t the ruling more or less consistent with the established principle of sovereign immunity? It is. The big issue really is what exactly are “Official Acts”? > [@Lumpy](#): > > The decision explicitly mentioned “for example, the power to issue pardons, veto legislation, recognize ambassadors, and make appointments.” Right, and I think none of us have an issue with the President having immunity for those _specific_ actions. From your link- _Roberts pushed back against the dissent by Sotomayor and a separate one by Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, describing them as striking “a chilling tone of doom that is wholly disproportionate to what the Court actually does today.” He portrayed the ruling as a relatively narrow one that decides only “that immunity extends to official discussions between the President and his Attorney General, and then remand to the lower courts” for them to determine whether the other acts alleged in the indictment are entitled to immunity._ ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/467 "2024-07-08T20:26:57Z")
That’s a blog article by a reporter, not the actual decision. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/468 "2024-07-08T20:42:26Z")
I rarely do this, but I’m cross-posting one of my posts from another thread because I think this is critical to understand. > [@Project 2025 is more than a playbook for Trumpism, it’s the Christian Nationalist manifesto](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/project-2025-is-more-than-a-playbook-for-trumpism-it-s-the-christian-nationalist-manifesto/998369/118): > > I think it’s important to point out that the most controversial and impactful decisions made by the SCOTUS this term all advance stated objectives of Project 2025: Immunity ruling: Shields presidents from prosecution under many circumstances and increases their power in pursuit of their Unitary Executive theory; Snyder, the ruling on gratuities: Allows kickbacks for state officials after they accomplish some ask by a grateful entity. Just be sure to pay the bribe after the action and not be… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/469 "2024-07-08T20:56:17Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That’s a blog article by a reporter, not the actual decisions How about [here,](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf) pages 14 and 15? _“They include, for instance, commanding the Armed Forces of the United States; granting reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States; and appointing public ministers and consuls, the Justices of this Court, and Officers of the United States. See §2. He also has important foreign relations responsibilities: making treaties, appointing ambassadors, recognizing foreign governments, meeting foreign leaders, overseeing international diplomacy and intelligence gathering, and managing matters related to terrorism, trade, and immigration. See §§2, 3. Domestically, he must “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” §3, and he bears responsibility for the actions of the many departments and agencies within the Executive Branch. He also plays a role in lawmaking by recommending to Congress the measures he thinks wise and signing or vetoing the bills Congress passes.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/470 "2024-07-08T21:01:36Z")
I’m not seeing that text at all…? ETA: Okay, pp. 14-15 of the PDF (pp. 6-7 of the decision). That is where the court lists some of the President’s duties under the Constitution. Only _some_ of the Presidents actions taken under explicit Constitutional authority are “conclusive and preclusive”, see p. 17 of the PDF / p. 9 of the decision (“The reasons that justify the President’s absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for acts within the scope of his exclusive authority therefore do not extend to conduct in areas where his authority is shared with Congress”). I think you ( **Lumpy** ) are severely misreading the opinion if you conclude all actions the President takes to satisfy a Constitutional duty are _ipso facto_ legal. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/471 "2024-07-08T21:01:37Z")
Maybe I’m blind, but I don’t see where it explicitly mentioned “for example, the power to issue pardons, veto legislation, recognize ambassadors, and make appointments.” But that doesn’t really matter. If Trump shoots Biden on 5th ave, is that an official act? Is it covered as part of his core powers? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/472 "2024-07-08T21:03:55Z")
If he directs the military to do so, for example, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/473 "2024-07-08T21:05:15Z")
And could he have done that, with immunity, when he was president? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/474 "2024-07-08T21:35:39Z")
He would have been safe from being charged (with a Federal crime, at least) until after his term. Prior to the recent cluster@#$& decision from SCOTUS, he’d have been fair game after he left office. No longer. ETA: In case you were getting at something different, the newly created immunity is only for acts committed in office. If he shoots Joe now, he’s in the soup. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/475 "2024-07-08T22:00:02Z")
Though if you do get to the point of doing such things in office, I’ll argue that you have absolutely no intent of _ever_ leaving office before dying of old age. That’s why I’ve been musing over the actual effect here. And I still think folks are thinking too small. If we’re discussing using the military as a get out of jail free card, why not go all the way, with firebombing New York City or doing a door to door roving summary execution of citizens with Democratic voter registrations? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/476 "2024-07-08T23:09:39Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > That’s why I’ve been musing over the actual effect here. The actual effect is that Trump will not be held responsible for sending a mob after his vice president and trying to overturn the American democracy. He has already done those crimes and will be immune from the consequences. Now, he could do far worse things, but things that aren’t as bad as assassinating his political opponents, and still won’t be held responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/477 "2024-07-08T23:26:12Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Quote deleted as violating rules due to changing the content of the quote. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > He would have been safe from being charged (with a Federal crime, at least) until after his term. I don’t believe the opinion supports this conclusion. I think the Government can show that the act of ordering the killing of a political rival in fact violates the victim’s rights under the Constitution (i.e. denies his 5th Amendment right to life, w/o due process of law) and therefore lies “manifestly or palpably beyond” the President’s Constitutional authority. _See Trump_ at 17. Being outside the President’s Constitutional authority, it cannot be considered an official act. Being an unofficial act, there is no immunity. _Id._ at 15. Even assuming the act was official in nature, I think “the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition to that act poses no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch”, _Id._ at 14. &etc. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/478 "2024-07-08T23:40:30Z")
I should have appended at the end of the sentence, “before the president leaves office.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/479 "2024-07-08T23:46:20Z")
Nope. This decision says that the president is immune from any crime committed via his core constitutional powers. They don’t say it’s not a crime. He may run roughshod over civil or constitutional rights, so long as he does so via his core powers, and has only slightly more jeopardy (if any) if the acts are not core but within the outside perimeter of presidential duties. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188/480 "2024-07-08T23:51:44Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > If he directs the military to do so, for example, then yes. I doubt that. Since the act is illegal on its face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-court-of-appeals-rules-against-trump-immunity-scotus-makes-a-different-decision/997188.md?page=25)