# DC Rebirth--Spoilers ahoy--So wait...the BigBad responsible for the New 52 is really.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679 "2016-05-25T17:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/1 "2016-05-25T17:48:21Z")
( mouseover spoiler space) ( mouseover spoiler space) ( mouseover spoiler space) ( mouseover spoiler space) Dr. Manhattan? From Watchmen? Really? The reason that the Superman books suck donkey balls isn’t bad writing or throwing out the essential elements that make him Superman or an urge to be “hip and down with the young folks”, it’s a naked blue guy on Mars decided to fuck things up? Dr Manhattan turned Starfire from a strong woman warrior into “Little Annie Fanny”? And his motivation for this was…? All of the characters became grim and unlikable and loud and “hip” and stupid because of Jon Osterman? _That’s_ what they chose to go with? Really? Bwah? After buying most of DC’s output from like 1977-ish to dropping down to just a few titles after the start of the New52 to being down to Scott Snyder’s Batman the last year or so (and Titans Rebirth), I don’t know if I care about the characters any more. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/2 "2016-05-25T17:51:49Z")
Geoff Johns at DC has a buy back program if you didn’t like it. Really… [http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff-johns-if-you-don-t-like-dcu-rebirth-ill-send-you-a-check-for-reals.html?utm\_content=buffer84843&utm\_medium=social&utm\_source=facebook.com&utm\_campaign=buffer](http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff-johns-if-you-don-t-like-dcu-rebirth-ill-send-you-a-check-for-reals.html?utm_content=buffer84843&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/3 "2016-05-25T17:57:36Z")
This is like bad fan fiction, especially that one shot where Batman finds the bloody smiley face button on the wall of his batcave! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/4 "2016-05-25T18:01:39Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Geoff Johns at DC has a buy back program if you didn’t like it. > > Really… > > [http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff-johns-if-you-don-t-like-dcu-rebirth-ill-send-you-a-check-for-reals.html?utm\_content=buffer84843&utm\_medium=social&utm\_source=facebook.com&utm\_campaign=buffer](http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff-johns-if-you-don-t-like-dcu-rebirth-ill-send-you-a-check-for-reals.html?utm_content=buffer84843&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer) Does he offer Zatanna’s mindwipe program? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/5 "2016-05-25T18:03:51Z")
The thing is, the book itself wasn’t bad until the reveal. If they’d have kept Dr. M out of it and just said that “Hey, that Pandora chick’s meddling is what screwed things up” or “Who cares why things were so crappy, let’s fix 'em”, I’d have been fine. But no. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/6 "2016-05-25T18:15:41Z")
“Things have been getting too dark lately. We’re going to bring back fun, levity, and love to the DC universe!” “Really? How?” “We’re folding The Watchmen into mainline continuity!” [![](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr070qFU9R1qlmze0o1_1280.jpg) ](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr070qFU9R1qlmze0o1_1280.jpg) Seriously, how long until they find Geoff Johns’ head in Alan Moore’s freezer? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/7 "2016-05-25T18:15:45Z")
I kind of like the “three Jokers” idea. I’ve long suspected that there are two (since that’s how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/8 "2016-05-25T18:18:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is like bad fan fiction, especially that one shot where Batman finds the bloody smiley face button on the wall of his batcave! I’ll take your word for it that it’s bad fan fic, but the _image_ is cool. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/9 "2016-05-25T18:25:28Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I kind of like the “three Jokers” idea. I’ve long suspected that there are two (since that’s how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn’t. I just read speculation that one of the three Jokers (the one who does all the international stuff, who murdered Jason Todd and who was in the Killing Joke) is The Comedian. I don’t know who the other two Jokers are/were. And (I didn’t read the issue) but apparently if you go read Superman Nu52 #32 there are hints that (in retrospect) Ozmandyas is the mysterious “Mr. Oz”. And that the Nu52 Question (who’s name/crime/etc still haven’t been explained) is Rorschach. If all this is true, kudos to the level of planning involved. But it’s still a dumb idea ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/10 "2016-05-25T18:26:46Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I kind of like the “three Jokers” idea. I’ve long suspected that there are two (since that’s how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn’t. And “The World’s Greatest Detective” needed info from Metron’s Magic Massage Chair to figure it out? He didn’t notice that they didn’t look, sound or act quite alike? At no time prior to this had they ever pulled off two or three capers in different places at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/11 "2016-05-25T21:17:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And “The World’s Greatest Detective” needed info from Metron’s Magic Massage Chair to figure it out? He didn’t notice that they didn’t look, sound or act quite alike? At no time prior to this had they ever pulled off two or three capers in different places at the same time? Don’t forget he and his peers installed security in Elongated Man’s home that included Kryptonian, Thanagarian and New God technology…but not a security camera. Nor did anyone think to go back in time OR any kind of ritual enabling them to see into the past. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/12 "2016-05-25T21:20:23Z")
I haven’t read the issue but if they kept the reveal contained and his interaction to say…John Constantine or somebody smart but low powered …or humble like Swamp Thing to parlay with him into undoing his “experiment”…I’d have no problem with it. a big blue God from another reality effed with the universe. Ok, now fix it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/13 "2016-05-25T21:35:18Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Don’t forget he and his peers installed security in Elongated Man’s home that included Kryptonian, Thanagarian and New God technology…but not a security camera. As was pointed out at the time, here’s a LAW & ORDER drinking game: Step One, start binge-watching old episodes; Step Two, take a shot and skip to the next episode when someone runs the victim’s phone records; Step Three, no one survives this game. Because that’s what you _do,_ right? Someone is killed, run their phone records; it’s beyond common sense; it’s routine, it’s procedure; it’s Investigation 101. ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/14 "2016-05-25T21:46:28Z")
After looking at DC’s Rebirth and Marvel’s decision to make Cap a Hydra spy, I’ve decided not to care about comics anymore. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/15 "2016-05-25T21:54:08Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > After looking at DC’s Rebirth and Marvel’s decision to make Cap a Hydra spy, I’ve decided not to care about comics anymore. I’m done. There are still the Indys. And Archie, which has done some damn brave stuff, lately. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/16 "2016-05-25T22:00:28Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > After looking at DC’s Rebirth and **Marvel’s decision to make Cap a Hydra spy** , I’ve decided not to care about comics anymore. I’m done. Bolding mine. Say what now? If it’s some kind of mind control plot, then OK, but… well… Marvel editorial has been making some very questionable decisions, to the point where i have no idea what they’re thinking. SO I could very well believe they’d try something like this. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/17 "2016-05-25T22:12:47Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Say what now? If it’s some kind of mind control plot, then OK, but… well… Marvel editorial has been making some very questionable decisions, to the point where i have no idea what they’re thinking. SO I could very well believe they’d try something like this. No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something. It’s the stupidest thing ever, even when compared to that DC reboot. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/18 "2016-05-25T22:20:20Z")
I quit with New 52…which was a pity because I really liked what they were doing right before . But no red underwear? Superman in blue jeans? No thank you As far as Marvel…I enjoyed their end of it all event. But that’s a good spot for me to leave, not sign up for more ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/19 "2016-05-25T22:58:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something. It’s the stupidest thing ever, even when compared to that DC reboot. I’m amazed at how many people are taking this reveal at face value. I mean, how many reality warpers, alt-universe characters, clones, body doubles, life-model decoys, and psychic parasites do you need to cram into one fictional world before, “They’re breaking my favorite character!” stops being the default reaction? My money’s one this not being the “real” Captain America, but an alt-universe one that landed in the 616 after the end of Battleworld, same as old man Logan. That, or the sentient cosmic cube that deaged him accidentally rewrote his history. But whatever they go with, they’ll find some way of explaining why this isn’t really Cap, or why this Cap isn’t really Hydra. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/20 "2016-05-25T23:03:15Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something. Are they, though? I mean, yes, they’re _saying_ it, and it looks like Cap is finally showing his true colors after having been a super-deep-cover sleeper agent who’s been innocuously acting like a patriotic hero all this time – but what’s the _other_ thing that looks exactly like that? Cap actually having been a patriotic hero all this time, while pretending to be a super-duper-deep-cover operative innocuously playing sleeper agent. _“What’s that? You’re finally activating me? Uh, hail hydra; take me to our fearless leader, I have a lot to report. No, ‘report’ isn’t a euphemism for throat-punch.”_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679.md?page=2)