# DC Rebirth--Spoilers ahoy--So wait...the BigBad responsible for the New 52 is really.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679 "2016-05-25T17:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/41 "2016-05-26T17:55:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Bah. That line of Doctor Manhattan’s that they built the issue around – where, after regaining interest in human life, and choosing to preserve life, he talks about maybe creating life – that’s on the heels of him giving Laurie a warm and human smile. It’s not grim or gritty; it’s contemplative, but it’s upbeat – and it’s followed by Laurie meeting with her mom and explaining that everything is okay and hugging her and forgiving her, and Dan is there and still as enthusiastic about helping people as ever, and the sun is shining and optimism is all over the place. For about two pages after a relentless and lengthy deconstruction of hope and inspiration. It’s like ending an hour long diatribe with “oops, just kidding”. And even then, it’s just a delayed doomsday, because as we’re shown with all the subtlety of a Cirque de Soleil piece, Rorschach’s journal can unravel the fragile peace. Watchmen is cynical. The ending does not change that. It actually reinforces it. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/42 "2016-05-26T18:02:59Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > Despite that mantra being consistently repeated, the New 52 wasn’t all ‘grim and gritty.’ People just chose to focus on the grittier aspects, then bring out their broad brushes to paint. > > As usual, its biggest sin is that it changed a bunch of stuff. There was a line-wide house writing style that made nearly every character surly and unlikable. That style finally started to break down with the surprise success of Harley Quinn’s book, so in the last couple of years, they have tried some non grim and gritty offerings, but it is overwhelmingly not the core characters of the DCU that benefited from that latter-day shift. Superman is the character that suffered most, because he doesn’t work in a grim, cynical universe were people try to shoehorn in some exaggerated sense of “realism”. The Grant Morrison run on Action wasn’t bad, but it was a lower-power, street level Superman (‘grittier’, if not ‘grim’ - though they killed the Kents again) and as soon as he left, that title began to flounder as badly as its sister title, Superman. So yeah, you can point to a few bright spots - at the fringes, later on, after they admitted to themselves that cynicism wasn’t working - but nobody is saying that the New 52 was one hundred percent grim and gritty from beginning to end, they’re saying it was too grim and too gritty for their tastes, and that’s why people stopped buying it. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/43 "2016-05-26T18:03:27Z")
Dendarii Dame: > [@](#): > > I don’t follow Legion these days. Please let me know what’s going on? Depending on how long “these days” means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn’t had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/44 "2016-05-26T18:21:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Dendarii Dame: > > Depending on how long “these days” means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn’t had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago. And their last appearance was largely an afterthought. A bunch of Legionaires had been stranded in the present and then their book was cancelled. The last appearances was in some third-string Justice League book and had something to do with Ultra The Multi-Alien getting them back to the future as part of a bigger plotline. So they really went out with a whimper. In the DC Rebirth comic, we see the back of some blonde female Legion member (almost certainly Saturn Girl) who’s being questioned by the police and gives a hopey-changey speech about how everything’s gonna be all right because she’s “seen the future”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/45 "2016-05-26T18:21:08Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Depending on how long “these days” means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn’t had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago. That’s right. _Ambush Bug_ has made more regular appearances. Hell, so have Sugar and Spike. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/46 "2016-05-26T18:29:30Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > For about two pages after a relentless and lengthy deconstruction of hope and inspiration. > > It’s like ending an hour long diatribe with “oops, just kidding”. And even then, it’s just a delayed doomsday, because as we’re shown with all the subtlety of a Cirque de Soleil piece, Rorschach’s journal can unravel the fragile peace. …or _not_. The last page comes down to, will Seymour make the choice that Rorschach did, or will he make the choice that Dan and Laurie and Adrian and Jon did? It’s up to the person reading the story whether the world is saved. > [@](#): > > Watchmen is cynical. The ending does not change that. It actually reinforces it. Is “cynical” the right word for Dan, deciding what’s important is keeping billions of people from dying? Is “cynical” the right word for Laurie, deciding what’s important is saving the Earth? Is “cynical” the right word for Adrian, deciding what’s important is working against the end of the world? Is “cynical” the right word for Jon, deciding what’s important is preserving life and perhaps creating some? Find me a character who imagines people crying out for him to save them, so he can look down and whisper “no” – okay, maybe call _that_ guy a cynic. But people who choose to take a stand _against_ armageddon? I look at that last page, and – well, the optimist in me of course hopes that guy will act to preserve life instead of making a monstrous choice, but, again, that’s me; we were talking about Jon. _What,_ on that last page, _would Jon want that guy to choose?_ Where did we leave Jon? As someone who wants humanity to live, or the opposite? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/47 "2016-05-26T18:54:11Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Dr Manhattan turned Starfire from a strong woman warrior into “Little Annie Fanny”? And his motivation for this was…? Because even a demigodlike being whose awareness spans the spacetime continuum can be just another gorny hi. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/48 "2016-05-26T19:57:45Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is “cynical” the right word for Dan, deciding what’s important is keeping billions of people from dying? Is “cynical” the right word for Laurie, deciding what’s important is saving the Earth? Is “cynical” the right word for Adrian, deciding what’s important is working against the end of the world? Is “cynical” the right word for Jon, deciding what’s important is preserving life and perhaps creating some? It is cynical to believe that murdering millions of people and framing an innocent man _is even necessary_ to prevent billions of people from dying. That they make themselves complicit in the supervillain’s act of mass murder because they believe he is right is cynical as hell. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/49 "2016-05-26T20:04:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It is cynical to believe that murdering millions of people and framing an innocent man _is even necessary_ to prevent billions of people from dying. That they make themselves complicit in the supervillain’s act of mass murder because they believe he is right is cynical as hell. Well, doesn’t that depend entirely on whether he _is_ right? If he’s right, and they really do have a choice between preserving life or dooming it; if he in fact was looking at the otherwise-inevitable extinction of humanity, and found a way to instead save the lives of billions; _in that case,_ what’s the optimistic thing to do? What’s the pessimistic thing to do? What’s the cynical thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/50 "2016-05-26T20:40:51Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s not grim or gritty; it’s contemplative, but it’s upbeat Yeah, this is what doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve seen some reviewers saying “Well, it kind of makes sense that it’s all Dr. Manhattan’s fault; after all _Watchmen_ helped start the whole grim-and-gritty comics trend.” But just because _Watchmen_ is grim and gritty doesn’t mean _Dr. Manhattan_ is grim and gritty. If anything, his defining personality trait is that he’s so _detached_; he only manages to care about the fate of mankind after he realizes that life is _interesting_ in a sort of mathematical sense. If the big reveal was that _Alan Moore_ used his omnipotent powers to make comics dark and grim, that would make more sense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/51 "2016-05-26T21:45:16Z")
…incidentally, does anyone want to hazard a guess as to who planted the Comedian’s smiley-face badge in the Batcave? I mean, yes, we can bicker all day over whether Doctor Manhattan left WATCHMEN on a hopeful note with the desire to preserve and create life, and whether his character here fits with that; but what I’m asking is, why would Doc at the end of WATCHMEN, or Doc here, or _anyone else_ put that there? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/52 "2016-05-26T22:16:41Z")
The Other Waldo Pepper: > [@](#): > > why would Doc at the end of WATCHMEN, or Doc here, or anyone else put that there? Maybe Rorschach did? Leaving a clue for the World’s Greatest Detective to unravel in case something happened to him sounds like something he might do. Nite Owl might have also, he doesn’t seem too have 100% accepted the morality of Ozymandias’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/53 "2016-05-26T22:37:48Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The Other Waldo Pepper: > > Maybe Rorschach did? Leaving a clue for the World’s Greatest Detective to unravel in case something happened to him sounds like something he might do. Nite Owl might have also, he doesn’t seem too have 100% accepted the morality of Ozymandias’s actions. So the idea is, Dan knows the location of the Batcave, and slips in and out without being noticed, and instead of leaving a _note_ leaves a clue that’s evidence of – wait, what the heck _is_ that evidence of? You recognize it as the bloodstained smiley-face badge from WATCHMEN, but would Bruce? You say he doesn’t seem to have 100% accepted the morality of Veidt’s actions; for the sake of argument, okay, let’s go with that; how does this _help?_ I mean, yeah, world’s greatest detective – but, what, you think Dan put that in the Batcave so Bruce would somehow get the hint to start looking into a murder he’s never heard of in a solar system he doesn’t know exists? (And where did he even _get_ it? Last we saw, wasn’t Dan dropping it into a coffin’s freshly-dug hole at a graveyard?) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/54 "2016-05-27T03:49:48Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I’m thrilled with Rebirth, it’s the best fix for the New 52 I could have realistically hoped for. Putting the blame on Dr. Manhattan as a proxy for the ‘grim and gritty’ trend that Watchmen started works fine for me. :dubious: If you think that Geoff Johns isn’t going to keep doing the same stuff he’s been doing, or that all this stuff fans are reading as the return of optimism isn’t just Geoff bringing in more bodies to kill, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/55 "2016-05-27T05:24:16Z")
The Other Waldo Pepper: > [@](#): > > So the idea is, Dan knows the location of the Batcave, and slips in and out without being noticed, and instead of leaving a note leaves a clue that’s evidence of – wait, what the heck is that evidence of? You recognize it as the bloodstained smiley-face badge from WATCHMEN, but would Bruce? > > You say he doesn’t seem to have 100% accepted the morality of Veidt’s actions; for the sake of argument, okay, let’s go with that; how does this help? I mean, yeah, world’s greatest detective – but, what, you think Dan put that in the Batcave so Bruce would somehow get the hint to start looking into a murder he’s never heard of in a solar system he doesn’t know exists? > > (And where did he even get it? Last we saw, wasn’t Dan dropping it into a coffin’s freshly-dug hole at a graveyard?) All fair points. I’m just speculating that it’s someone in the Watchmen universe who is not on board with the Ozymandias/Doctor Manhattan “cynical” world view. How the specifics would play out, I haven’t the foggiest idea, but I imagine that with enough imagination, a professional comics writer can work those details out. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/56 "2016-05-27T09:43:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, doesn’t that depend entirely on whether he _is_ right? > > If he’s right, and they really do have a choice between preserving life or dooming it; if he in fact was looking at the otherwise-inevitable extinction of humanity, and found a way to instead save the lives of billions; _in that case,_ what’s the optimistic thing to do? What’s the pessimistic thing to do? What’s the cynical thing to do? The optimistic thing to do is to not assume that the only way to stop the elected government of the United States from doing something they absolutely do not want to do (i.e. get themselves nuked) is to murder millions of innocent people. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Maybe Rorschach did? Leaving a clue for the World’s Greatest Detective to unravel in case something happened to him sounds like something he might do. Sure, but Rorschach is not the Riddler. When he wanted the world to know what he knew, he literally mailed a book which explained everything to the press. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/57 "2016-05-27T10:54:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The optimistic thing to do is to not assume that the only way to stop the elected government of the United States from doing something they absolutely do not want to do (i.e. get themselves nuked) is to murder millions of innocent people. I’m not sure whether you’re disregarding my point or embracing it. I’m asking: _assuming Veidt was correct,_ what’s the optimistic thing to do? And what’s the pessimistic thing to do? And what’s the cynical thing to do? You’re replying that the optimistic thing to do would be – to assume Veidt was incorrect. Are you saying the optimistic thing to do is to assume he’s wrong even if he’s right? Because if you’re defining optimism as “being incorrect”, and cynicism as “being correct”, then you can maybe win the argument over whether Doc represents cynicism; but at what price? THE TRUTH: “Do this, or billions of people die as life on our planet goes extinct.” PESSIMIST: “Okay, let billions of people die as life on our planet goes extinct.” THE CYNIC: “What? No, I’m on the side of love and life! Let’s save billions!” OPTIMIST: “Let’s do something else!” THE TRUTH: “That won’t work.” PESSIMIST: “But my plan _will_ leave everyone dead?” THE TRUTH: “Yes.” THE CYNIC: “And mine will save the lives of billions?” THE TRUTH: “Yes.” OPTIMIST: “And mine?” THE TRUTH: “…will also leave everyone dead, yes.” If that’s how you define optimism and cynicism, then you’re welcome to it. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/58 "2016-05-27T13:12:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is “cynical” the right word for Dan, deciding what’s important is keeping billions of people from dying? Is “cynical” the right word for Laurie, deciding what’s important is saving the Earth? Is “cynical” the right word for Adrian, deciding what’s important is working against the end of the world? Is “cynical” the right word for Jon, deciding what’s important is preserving life and perhaps creating some? Is “cynical” the right word for Alan Moore, who decided to only give his characters completely fucked choices? Yes, yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/59 "2016-05-27T13:14:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > …incidentally, does anyone want to hazard a guess as to who planted the Comedian’s smiley-face badge in the Batcave? I mean, yes, we can bicker all day over whether Doctor Manhattan left WATCHMEN on a hopeful note with the desire to preserve and create life, and whether his character here fits with that; but what I’m asking is, why would Doc at the end of WATCHMEN, or Doc here, or _anyone else_ put that there? Jesus, did nobody else get this? I’ve been seeing crap all over the internet wondering if the Comedian as the Joker left it there. The smiley face materialized out of Wally’s lightning field and embedded itself in the walls of the Batcave with an audible noise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679/60 "2016-05-27T13:39:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Is “cynical” the right word for Alan Moore, who decided to only give his characters completely fucked choices? Yes, yes it is. Well, see, I can get behind _that._ But I figure that still makes Jon – and Adrian, and Dan, and Laurie – characters who strive to make the best choice available, working to preserve life where they can and save as many lives as possible. And if I want to start railing against Alan Moore, I’m going to soon stop and scratch my head and say _sure, he put those characters in a bad situation, but he chose to have them pick the least bad option, with smiles and hugs and peace and love and the survival of humanity and a new surge of social optimism._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-rebirth-spoilers-ahoy-so-wait-the-bigbad-responsible-for-the-new-52-is-really/755679.md?page=4)