# DC, representation in Congress, and home rule **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686 "2009-07-20T22:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/61 "2009-07-21T19:42:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, name an issue that a resident of DC might care about. Crime rate? Politicians can get mugged just like anyone else, and I don’t imagine that they like it any better. Electricity, sewer, and other utilities? Politicians are just as inconvenienced by power outages as the rest of us, and contrary to what some might like us to think, their shit do stink just like ours. The school system? Politicians have kids, too. What issue is there that’s important to a resident of DC that isn’t important to the politicians in DC? There are a few dozen Jews in Congress, some percentage of which probably have a vested interest in many of the same things residents of Israel find important. Is Israel fairly represented in Congress? What if Congress started convening in Los Angeles? Should the residents of California be stripped of their congresspeople? Or just the residents of L.A.? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/62 "2009-07-21T19:44:58Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Representation as I see it is simply a voting member of Congress, not an ombudsman. From Senator Tester’s website: > [@](#): > > How Senator Tester Can Help > > If you are a Montanan and need assistance working with or getting answers from an agency of the Federal Government, Senator Tester’s office may be able to help. > > Senator Tester and his staff make every effort to assist Montanans. We can help you by providing basic information, such as a federal agency phone number, and help you with governmental procedures, such as applying for a passport or visa. We can also provide you assistance with: > > ``` > * military awards and commendations; > * veterans' benefits; > * Social Security and Medicare benefits; > * immigration matters; > * small-business concerns; and > * federal tax matters and the Internal Revenue Service. [snip] > > ``` > > If you are not from Montana, please visit with one of your Senators. To preserve limited resources, inquiries without a Montana connection are automatically forwarded to a Senator from the appropriate state. [Link.](http://tester.senate.gov/Services/index.cfm) I’m willing to bet that every congressman or senator offers the same services to his constituents. I will refrain from commenting on the repetition of the words, “If you are a Montanan…” Oops, I just did it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/63 "2009-07-21T19:48:18Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > What if Congress started convening in Los Angeles? Should the residents of California be stripped of their congresspeople? Or just the residents of L.A.? I’ll say no to that one. California is a state, and LA is part of the state, and you can’t provide a state of its representation in Congress. DC isn’t a state, so it doesn’t have any right to representation in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/64 "2009-07-21T20:45:51Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > And it should be noted that no one who moved to D.C. did so expecting to be able to vote for a representative in Congress. Now, obviously, those who have been born there to people who moved in didn’t get a say in that, but that’s true of anyone born into something that their ancestors chose for them. They have the same choice everyone always has: stay and accept what you were given by birth, or leave and make a new life for yourself. Or agitate for a better life where you are. _Baker v. Carr_ and _Reynolds v. Sims_ establish that there are circumstances where it is unfair to disadvantage you simply because of where you live, and “pick up and move” is simply not a sufficient response. I do think the Constitution is clear that there is to be a non-voting federal area, and that an amendment would be necessary to change that (although retrocession of the bulk of the residential areas is presumptively permissible). So it’s certainly constitutional, but I think it’s impossible to say that it’s not unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/65 "2009-07-21T20:51:04Z")
This is why I’m skeptical of any plan that gives any of the benefits of statehood to the residents of DC without actual statehood - this flies in the face of constitutional arrangements we have lived with for a long time. Almost as bad would be any arrangement that would give DC residents a House vote but no Senate representation at all. It seems funny that DC residents that chafe at second-class citizenship seem to be happy to settle for this arrangement. I sure wouldn’t. Statehood for the District makes little sense on the basis of population or territory. And so, with all of this, frankly the only arrangement that makes sense is retrocession. After all, there is precedent for it, and the constitutionality of this action wouldn’t be doubted by anyone. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/66 "2009-07-21T20:52:12Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The foundations of our democracy established that the District of Columbia was not to have direct participation in the federal government. So the assertion that D.C. needs representatives would require repudiation of those foundations. 😉 Well to be picky, I’d say the foundations of the system of government are the principles underlying it - including equality. The structure built on those foundations is the system of government, including the Constitution. So it is possible something can be in the Constitution, and yet run contrary to the foundations of the democracy. Like leaving DC residents unrepresented. Or slavery, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/67 "2009-07-21T22:31:12Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Statehood for the District makes little sense on the basis of population or territory. Why? DC would not be the least populous state, and area is irrelevant; Alaska has no more privileges than Rhode Island. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/68 "2009-07-22T01:11:38Z")
Area is relevant, as DC is the size of a city - and indeed is smaller by both area and population than many U.S. cities. While it sits in the middle of a vast metropolitan area it is of middling size by population - 26 American cities have more people. Would you say each of them should get two senators? ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/69 "2009-07-22T01:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > 26 American cities have more people [than DC]. > > Would you say each of them should get two senators? _If_ New York State redrew its borders to put the islands of Manhattan, Staten Island, and Long Island outside of said borders, _and_ the residents of those islands suddenly found themselves without voting representation in Congress, then yes something ought to be done to correct that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/70 "2009-07-22T01:33:32Z")
Right. Perhaps you missed the part where I advocated a practical and constitutional solution. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/71 "2009-07-22T01:38:00Z")
No I didn’t miss that, I just answered your question as plainly as I could. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/72 "2009-07-22T18:43:53Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Area is relevant, as DC is the size of a city - and indeed is smaller by both area and population than many U.S. cities. While it sits in the middle of a vast metropolitan area it is of middling size by population - 26 American cities have more people. > > Would you say each of them should get two senators? They each _do_ get two senators. And again, area makes no difference in representation in Congress or in state legislatures, so why do you keep bringing it up? And why are you bringing up population in a discussion of the Senate? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/73 "2009-07-22T20:56:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > They each _do_ get two senators. And again, area makes no difference in representation in Congress or in state legislatures, so why do you keep bringing it up? And why are you bringing up population in a discussion of the Senate? Two Senators all to their lonesome. Not shared with other cities. You know, like LA and San Francisco and San Jose and San Diego have to share senators - though they have populations larger than Washington DC. I realize there is a small state - large state disparity when it comes to these things that isn’t exactly fair - this likely wouldn’t have been a feature of our system were we to design it from scratch today. However, the solution to this is likely to leave it alone, for better or worse - it certainly isn’t to make the problem worse by granting statehood to a smallish city of a half-million people. Hell, Fairfax County nearby has more people in it. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/74 "2009-07-22T21:21:19Z")
I agree with Mr. Moto. I think that pursuing statehood for the District is the absolute wrong approach for at least a few reasons. One is that I doubt it will pass either Congress or the various legislatures. Another would be that I think it would then leave the District over represented in Congress. I don’t really like our current council members and wouldn’t want them in the Senate. I think that retrocession would be the best option. I’m rather surprised that the local politicos don’t push it more, although I can understand that they won’t get to be the biggest fish in a relatively small pond. The Maryland power brokers are worried because DC will be a new jurisdiction with its own power brokers and a good chunk of population that will shake things up. I think that retrocession could be messy in that DC has its own legal code and body of law. If the District was retroceded, then what would happen to all that? Additionally, the local DC government has some of the functions of a state. If it were retroceded, then what happens to all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/75 "2009-07-23T14:56:53Z")
Does retrocession require the consent of the state? I know a state can’t be divided without its permission, but what about addition? ---
**Author:** ![Piker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@Piker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Piker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/76 "2009-07-23T16:17:45Z")
To all those who (ridiculously) think that the District has 535 representatives working for its interests: [AP Enterprise: Neglected National Mall languishes](http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&sid=1723885) > [@](#): > > “It does not deserve the name ‘National Mall,’” said Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton, the city’s nonvoting member of Congress. “We ought to call it something else until it looks decent.” > > The Obama Administration recently steered $55 million in economic stimulus money toward repairs, but Interior Secretary Ken Salazar says that’s only a down payment on the nearly $400 million needed to fix up a national park that draws more visitors than Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon and Yosemite combined. > > An Associated Press analysis of congressional spending since 2005 found the mall has been at a disadvantage in competing for extra funds doled out by lawmakers, compared with sites that are represented by powerful members of Congress. The mall is in Washington, D.C., which has no vote in the House or Senate. I lived a few blocks from the National Mall for three years, and would have favored candidates that would put money into the Park. But silly me for thinking that I, as a taxpaying American citizen, had any say in the matter. I decided to go to law school in the District . . . idiot! All my fault! -Chris ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/77 "2009-07-24T06:26:06Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Moreover, the residents have very little grounds to complain, as they’ve generally made their town a festering craphole filled with grotesquely corrupt buffoons and violent criminals, although I understand it’s gotten a bit better than the late 80’s days. Gee that isn’t a gross generalization at all. You obviously haven’t been to DC since Clinton was in office. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/78 "2009-07-24T06:29:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I will admit that, say, Senator Tester represents Montana a great deal more than he represents the District of Columbia. I doubt he thinks about DC at all. > [@](#): > > I do think it’s reasonable, though, to assume that each member of Congress devotes at least 1% of his or her attention to Washington, which, owing to the large number of such individuals, ends up adding up to considerably more total representation for Washingtonians than for those in the rest of the country. In fact I doubt anyone that is not on the subcommmittee that governs DC gives a crap. This committee is mostly congressmen from nearby districts that are more interested in funding projects in DC that will benefit their districts than in projects taht will actually benefit DC itself. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/79 "2009-07-24T06:38:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The entirety of the DC city is less than, IIRC, 40 blocks. And those are washington blocks, which are irregular and often smaller than other cities. And most of that is covered by federal buildings and services. It’s hardly more than a postage stamp, which is why the fact that it doesn’t get its own representative while still having the (off-and-on attention of the entire U.S. Congress) does not really bother me. Take away the “non-government” areas, and you wouldn’t change anything. Plus, there’s the nontrivial fact that maryland would rather see it burned to ashes than joined onto their state. I think its more like 10 miles by 10 miles. I believe that it has a larger population than half a dozen states. > [@](#): > > This does not say anything very flattering about the people who live there. You realize that there isn’t a WALL between DC and MD don’t you. The PEOPLE can move back and forth by crossing a street. MD doesn’t want DC because half of DC is poor and consumes a lot of social services. > [@](#): > > Moreover, the people who live there and whine usually ignore the fact that they can move a stone’s throw away, often for less. They don’t, probably because they want to be called a state without paying any more taxes. You do realize that DC has one of the highest local taxes in the country right? > [@](#): > > I have talked to dozens of ex-Washingtonians, The plural of anecdote is not data. > [@](#): > > That should _also_ tell current Washingtonians something. what? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686/80 "2009-07-24T06:39:42Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The situation faced by the people of the District of Columbia is hardly unique. The people of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico face the same issue. There are other unrepresented territories of the United States. > > The only difference with the District of Columbia is that those people have no opportunity to join the “states” by constitutional decree. If/when Puerto Rico becomes the 51st state, that might become an issue. Puerto Rico is not subject to US tax laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-representation-in-congress-and-home-rule/503686.md?page=5)