# DC soda tax **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786 "2010-04-29T20:41:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/21 "2010-04-30T16:05:34Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > This tax makes it more attractive to buy more, smaller bottles of soda - and thus generate more plastic waste. How so? If given the choice of buying a 2 liter coke for $1.20 + $0.66 tax = $1.86 or buying 3 - 20 oz. bottles of coke for $0.99 each, $2.97 + $0.60 tax = $3.57 I think most people would still buy the 2 liter. It’s interesting that the OP is okay with taxes on cigarettes and booze but not on soda. I’m guessing it’s because he consumes more soda than cigarettes or booze. Governments primary reason for levying taxes is to raise money to pay for government services. The best way to lower taxes, is to reduce the size of government. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/22 "2010-04-30T16:18:04Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Most soda taxes don’t tax diet sodas. Dunno about the DC soda tax in particular, but I would guess its the same deal. If you follow the link in the OP to the source article, it says it does: “It includes sugary beverages such as sweetened tea, diet sodas, and energy drinks, in all venues where these are sold.” [Cite](http://obamafoodorama.blogspot.com/2010/04/dc-will-consider-soda-tax-to-fund.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/23 "2010-04-30T16:44:08Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > How so? If given the choice of buying a 2 liter coke for $1.20 + $0.66 tax = $1.86 > > or buying 3 - 20 oz. bottles of coke for $0.99 each, $2.97 + $0.60 tax = $3.57 > > I think most people would still buy the 2 liter. > It’s interesting that the OP is okay with taxes on cigarettes and booze but not on soda. I’m guessing it’s because he consumes more soda than cigarettes or booze. > > Governments primary reason for levying taxes is to raise money to pay for government services. The best way to lower taxes, is to reduce the size of government. Dude. I’m a lawyer. Do you _really_ want to argue that the reason I don’t object to booze taxes is that I don’t drink enough to care about them? For the record, I _do_ object to taxing alcohol, but feel these taxes are so universally well-established that fighting them is futile. Ditto tobacco. As for the question of people buying more small bottles as a result of this tax - I admit it’s speculative, and I’m not particularly committed to that point. I would point out, though, that anything that _narrows_ the price gap between small and large bottles, as this tax will, would be expected to make the smaller bottles more attractive. This is particularly so given the advantages I’ve already discussed - portability, etc. > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > But what do you do when people have been given all of the available information on the topic at hand, have been educated in all of the benefits and consequences of the issue, have been given ample opportunity for extended discussion and contemplation of all this information, and then make what you believe is the wrong choice? > > Sooner or later, in any discussion of how education is the solution to this, that, or another social problem, this question has to be grappled with. Almost inevitably, the answer is not, “OK, that’s their choice,” but instead, “well, then we’ll have to do something.” The exact dimensions of “something” are almost never spelled out, but the implication is that the decision will have to be made for them, and imposed upon them. Forcibly, if necessary. > > I am very skeptical of “education is the solution” arguments. When I talk about education, I’m not just talking about education narrowly focused on nutrition - though of course, that’s important and desirable. I’m talking about _education_ - literacy, numeracy, history, civics, research skills. I believe, perhaps naively, that a person who can read, and think critically about what they read, and find things to read on their own, has a profoundly different worldview and set of options from a person who can’t do these things. A person with those skills can find recipes, or read newspaper articles about how burgers will kill them, or whatever they wish. And such a person can get a job that lets them budget for food more than one day in advance. That said, I agree that some people, despite their level of education, will make bad food choices. Hell, the only reason I’m fairly healthy is probably youth and fortunate genetics - I eat crap on a regular basis. And do you know what? I think I should be allowed to do so. I don’t see a need for the state to intervene. So long as I know what I’m doing, and others do as well, I think informed adults should be allowed to make informed choices - even ones I think are wrong. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I say this with as much respect to my fellow DCers as possible, but the assumption that DC is chock-full of fully functioning members of society who are knowledgeable about things like nutrition, basic business etiquette, or even literacy, is not a valid assumption. > > There was a study done a few years ago that found that roughly 12% of US adults are functionally illiterate. More than a third of adults in DC are functionally illiterate. Think about that: for all the lawyers and bureaucrats here, to have a third of the population be functionally illiterate is just astounding. > > Another data point: a friend of mine works with various employment programs in the city. Very basic business skills like show up on time, call if you can’t work due to illness, don’t swear at your boss, wear decent clothes for an interview, etc. are continual problems. > > If these are the problems that are prevalent among DC’s adults, what do you expect they are teaching their children about nutrition? Exactly. I can’t say, for a certainty, that fixing DC public schools so that they produce functional adults won’t help solve the nutrition issue. But people are coming out of this system with so much stacked against them now - how could it _not_ help make them more functional, and thus savvier consumers of food (along with everything else)? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/24 "2010-04-30T17:19:29Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > As for the question of people buying more small bottles as a result of this tax - I admit it’s speculative, and I’m not particularly committed to that point. I would point out, though, that anything that _narrows_ the price gap between small and large bottles, as this tax will, would be expected to make the smaller bottles more attractive. This is particularly so given the advantages I’ve already discussed - portability, etc. If it did make smaller bottles more attractive, that might be a good thing, if the goal is to get people to drink less soda. [Visual cues are involved when people decide how much of something to consume](http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v13/n1/full/oby200512a.html). Some people will drink more soda when they buy it in larger bottles. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/25 "2010-04-30T17:20:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I say this with as much respect to my fellow DCers as possible, but the assumption that DC is chock-full of fully functioning members of society who are knowledgeable about things like nutrition, basic business etiquette, or even literacy, is not a valid assumption. > > There was a study done a few years ago that found that roughly 12% of US adults are functionally illiterate. More than a third of adults in DC are functionally illiterate. Think about that: for all the lawyers and bureaucrats here, to have a third of the population be functionally illiterate is just astounding. > > Another data point: a friend of mine works with various employment programs in the city. Very basic business skills like show up on time, call if you can’t work due to illness, don’t swear at your boss, wear decent clothes for an interview, etc. are continual problems. > > If these are the problems that are prevalent among DC’s adults, what do you expect they are teaching their children about nutrition? Ouch. I’m not disagreeing, but it is shocking. I have a feeling that the people this affects the most, won’t know about the tax and won’t know why prices have gone up. The fact that DC seems to throw a lot of money at the schools and it hasn’t helped much is pretty disheartening although it appears that some strides have been made. I don’t know that having more education on healthy foods will be the way to go either since a portion of the city’s population historically haven’t good access to fresh fruits in vegetables and a lot of the corner stores and smaller supermarkets don’t seem to carry much in the way of produce. I’m no mathematician, but won’t this leave DC’s soda tax rate in line with what they charge in the suburbs? This wouldn’t be the driving force for me to go out to the suburbs to buy groceries, when the longer lines in the District, lack of parking, and DC bag tax haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/26 "2010-04-30T17:32:58Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > I’m no mathematician, but won’t this leave DC’s soda tax rate in line with what they charge in the suburbs? This wouldn’t be the driving force for me to go out to the suburbs to buy groceries, when the longer lines in the District, lack of parking, and DC bag tax haven’t. No, the soda tax will be much higher than in the suburbs. MD is 6%, while VA is 1.5%. Since the District tax will is by the ounce, the percentage will vary depending on the size of the bottle - but it’ll work out to about a 33% tax on two-liter bottles, with a bit over a 10% tax on cans. ---
**Author:** ![NoMoreDCTaxes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@NoMoreDCTaxes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoMoreDCTaxes)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/27 "2010-05-05T05:16:46Z")
D.C. Council Member Mary Cheh’s proposed beverage tax would include much more then just soda. Cheh’s proposal would target all sugary beverages. Sport drinks, juices, iced tea, lemonade, if it has sugar, Cheh wants to tax it. This would lead to confusion as baristas attempt to calculate the tax of a large black coffee with two sugars. It would be the 1993 snack food tax fiasco all over again. The dividing line between low-income and outright poverty is a string of coins. Low-income families shop for food by looking at price tags, not the USDA food pyramid. Regressive taxation not only stretches the food budget, but could wreak devastation on the whole family economy. It isn’t the president of Pepsi that will join the unemployment line, but the delivery driver, the convenience store clerk and the hot dog vendor. Read my complete rebuttal on my blog at: > **[Beverage Tax Rebuttal](http://nomoredctaxes.blogspot.com/2010/05/soda-tax-rebuttal.html)** > > Recently a proposal was put forth by D.C. Council Member Mary Cheh to tax beverages in order fund programs and close the budget gap. Cheh i... Check out the No D.C. Beverage Tax to sign the petition at: [http://nodcbevtax.com/Sign\_the\_Petition.html](http://nodcbevtax.com/Sign_the_Petition.html) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/28 "2010-05-05T14:41:06Z")
I wouldn’t mind more DC taxes if we got the vote. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/29 "2010-05-05T15:35:17Z")
Since the very poor have food stamps they can buy food without tax anyway right? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/30 "2010-05-05T17:17:18Z")
A per-ounce tax, as opposed to a percentage tax, is precisely in accord with other “sin taxes.” For example, cigarettes are taxed at a flat rate per pack, not as a percentage of whatever the final retail price is. Buying cigarettes in a carton, versus individual packs, doesn’t change the tax. > [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I would probably be inclined to get annoyed by a tax on non-diet sodas if we didn’t subsidize the HFCS industry so heavily. In effect, right now, I have to subsidize unhealthy behavior which doesn’t seem any more outrageous to me than penalizing unhealthy behavior. Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/31 "2010-05-05T18:10:41Z")
I think it should be higher, and include pretty much all processed foods and fast food, too. And end corn and soy subsidies, for god’s sake. One of the majors reasons that junk food is so much cheaper is because us taxpayers are subsidizing the raw materials of our own poison. Of course, that’s a pipe dream that’ll never ever ever happen, because government is snuggled down way too tight in bed with these industries. Most of the soda taxes that are being proposed now probably won’t even happen, and will be repealed shortly if they do. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/32 "2010-05-05T19:57:52Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > If you follow the link in the OP to the source article, it says it does: > > “It includes sugary beverages such as sweetened tea, diet sodas, and energy drinks, in all venues where these are sold.” > > [Cite](http://obamafoodorama.blogspot.com/2010/04/dc-will-consider-soda-tax-to-fund.html) Wait, how does that work? Diet sodas are not sugary. How would the law be enforced? Maybe this a hijack, but what happens if a law asserts something that just isn’t so? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/33 "2010-05-05T20:09:32Z")
**sug ar y** “Tasting or looking like sugar” check “Excessively or cloyingly sweet” check “of, like, or containing sugar” check “deceptively pleasant” check I’d say diet sodas are sugary. And there’s plenty to suggest that sugar substitutes aren’t the dietary free-ride that they’re made out to be, so I’m glad they’re being included. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/34 "2010-05-05T20:31:38Z")
At best Mary Cheh’s attempt at micromanaging other people’s lives will simply create more pollution because people will drive outside the district and buy car loads of the consumables they want in order to save money. Instead of a beer run it will be Sunny D. It is a guaranteed economic and ecological boondoggle that will ultimately lose tax revenue as people shop elsewhere. Grocery stores and the vendors that supply them will take a huge hit on this. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/35 "2010-05-05T20:56:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At best Mary Cheh’s attempt at micromanaging other people’s lives will simply create more pollution because people will drive outside the district and buy car loads of the consumables they want in order to save money. Instead of a beer run it will be Sunny D. It is a guaranteed economic and ecological boondoggle that will ultimately lose tax revenue as people shop elsewhere. Grocery stores and the vendors that supply them will take a huge hit on this. I don’t think it will make much difference pollution wise. A lot of people with cars already do quite a bit of shopping outside of the district. There is no Costco in DC so anybody who shops there is already outside of DC. I see lots of DC plates in the parking lot at the Arlington Costco which is where I would probably buy soda. **NoMoreDCTaxes,** its soda and juice that is being taxed at a higher rate not the other stuff so it shouldn’t really make a difference in a family’s food budget. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/36 "2010-05-05T21:45:14Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > I don’t think it will make much difference pollution wise. A lot of people with cars already do quite a bit of shopping outside of the district. There is no Costco in DC so anybody who shops there is already outside of DC. I see lots of DC plates in the parking lot at the Arlington Costco which is where I would probably buy soda. > > **NoMoreDCTaxes,** its soda and juice that is being taxed at a higher rate not the other stuff so it shouldn’t really make a difference in a family’s food budget. Obviously there are taxable items being sold in DC or the tax wouldn’t be proposed. Soda and other consumables currently purchased in DC will be purchased outside. It is a guaranteed loss of revenue for DC. Not only will soda be purchased outside of DC, there will be an increase of general grocery purchase (outside of DC) because of the extra trips. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/37 "2010-05-05T21:52:17Z")
I think most of the commenters in this thread underestimate how difficult it can be to make healthy eating choices, how difficult it is for parents to insulate their children from poor eating choices, how heavily subsidized sweetened drinks are, how much marketing and product-development sophistication is brought to bear in _circumventing_ customers’ rational decision-making abilities, and how serious the problems of sugared sodas are, esp. to the African-American population. Oh yeah, and how many government funds are spent combatting their health consequences. Maybe there’s some sort of libertarian ideal world where people really could make rational choices with a full understanding of the facts. But we don’t live in it – unquestioned assumptions, status-quo bias, poor education, and the awesome budget and sophistication of The Coca-Cola Company and PepsiCo all have their thumbs heavily on the scale. In the meantime, I’m perfectly happy to have government create disincentives for people not to engage in self-destructive behavior, especially when it could have the side-benefit of saving us a ton of health-care tax dollars. And come on folks – this is very low-hanging fruit. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/38 "2010-05-05T22:05:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It is a **guaranteed** loss of revenue for DC. You can’t seriously believe this? Sure, maybe your scenario would play out. Maybe. I find it far more likely that a very small percentage of people would “protest shop” outside the district, a very small percentage of people would stop drinking soda, and the vast majority would pay the tax. You’re forgetting tourists and those who buy sodas on their commute/during their workday as **huge** demographic in DC. These people would have virtually no choice but to pay the tax if they want a soda. I’m sure a small faction of middle-class misguided faux-cost-conscious moms would add soda to the list of things they buy on their already extant shopping trips outside the district, but the upper and lower classes (both of which, I believe, are significantly larger in DC than in America at large) are not going to change their behavior over this. > [@Cliffy](#): > > I think most of the commenters in this thread underestimate how difficult it can be to make healthy eating choices, how difficult it is for parents to insulate their children from poor eating choices, how heavily subsidized sweetened drinks are, how much marketing and product-development sophistication is brought to bear in circumventing customers’ rational decision-making abilities, and how serious the problems of sugared sodas are, esp. to the African-American population. Oh yeah, and how many government funds are spent combatting their health consequences. > > Maybe there’s some sort of libertarian ideal world where people really could make rational choices with a full understanding of the facts. But we don’t live in it – unquestioned assumptions, status-quo bias, poor education, and the awesome budget and sophistication of The Coca-Cola Company and PepsiCo all have their thumbs heavily on the scale. In the meantime, I’m perfectly happy to have government create disincentives for people not to engage in self-destructive behavior, especially when it could have the side-benefit of saving us a ton of health-care tax dollars. And come on folks – this is very low-hanging fruit. Indeed. I find it fascinating that corporations spend hundreds of billions of dollars per year on advertising, and yet every single person you talk to will claim to be personally exempt from its effects. Really? You think they’re pissing all that money away? That’s not even getting into tax breaks, deals with schools, deals with the USDA, deals with the FTC, etc etc. A soda/sweet foods/junk foods tax would be a very very small counterpunch thrown by the little guy in a very very uneven fight. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/39 "2010-05-05T22:09:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not only will soda be purchased outside of DC, there will be an increase of general grocery purchase (outside of DC) because of the extra trips. This is certainly true, but one has to wonder how much of this there will be. Without evidence, I assume it’s going to be very small. People who buy soda in bulk, have easy access to transportation, and are price sensitive probably already buy in the suburbs, because that’s where the Targets and Wal-Marts are, not to mention the Costcos. I doubt there is a huge demand for cheap bulk sodas that’s being satisfied in the District – price sensitive people already drive to Virginia, or they already go without. I think the effect is overwhelmingly going to be to disincentivize people from buying sodas at lunch, and probably the soda tax will make up for lost tax revenue on both forgone soda sales and the (I think small) lost taxes from people buying groceries in the 'burbs while they’re there on a Coke-hunting trip. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786/40 "2010-05-05T22:11:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I find it fascinating that corporations spend hundreds of billions of dollars per year on advertising, and yet every single person you talk to will claim to be personally exempt from its effects. Really? You think they’re pissing all that money away? An excellent way to put it. –Cliffy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dc-soda-tax/537786.md?page=3)