# Deacon Blues, etc.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [April 24, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692 "2008-04-24T15:31:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/1 "2008-04-24T15:31:22Z")
I so wanted to include my observations concerning the title song in the ongoing thread [Songs you used to like before you started listening to the lyrics](http://208.100.26.199/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464353) but my qualifications to participate in that thread were stymied. To wit:
1. I still like the music
2. I have never been all that big on lyrics, and
3. Steely Dan’s sound (no matter what words they’re using) appeals to me as music.
I liked _Deacon Blues_ more when I thought the message was a positive one in the lines
> [@](#):
>
> They call Alabama the Crimson Tide; call me Deacon Blues
and that it was sort of a tribute to the state.
When I read or heard that Fagen and Becker were using that terminology as the ultimate putdown of Alabama, I enjoyed it much less. Their intent was along the lines of “those ignorant crackers” being called something as exalted as Crimson Tide, or words to that effect.
When The University of Alabama began using the song as an endorsement of its worth in the pantheon of great football programs, my recall of Dan’s point led me to reconnect with the intent, as applied to Bama the school, and I began to appreciate the lyrics even more!
So the lyrics as a whole still are somewhat mysterious/vague/irrelevant to my enjoyment of the music behind the words. But it was the song that came to mind for purposes of contributing to that linked thread.
The whole idea of starting this thread, over and above the foregoing, was to see if other songs have affected you in a similar way (hot-to-cold-to-hot or vice versa) or if your tastes for the lyrics of a song have vacillated over time.
Also, if you can shed more light on the point to the lyrics of _Deacon Blues_ I’m here to listen.
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### Author:  [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/2 "2008-04-24T17:35:48Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar]
When I read or heard that Fagen and Becker were using that terminology as the ultimate putdown of Alabama, I enjoyed it much less. Their intent was along the lines of “those ignorant crackers” being called something as exalted as Crimson Tide, or words to that effect.
[/QUOTE]
I guess it’s possible, as Becker & Fagan are snarky Northerners. But my take was always along the lines of: “Alabama is allowed to self-describe itself with a nickname that doesn’t make much literal sense. So here’s the one I want for myself.”
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/3 "2008-04-24T18:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=Ichbin Dubist]
I guess it’s possible, as Becker & Fagan are snarky Northerners. But my take was always along the lines of: “Alabama is allowed to self-describe itself with a nickname that doesn’t make much literal sense. So here’s the one I want for myself.”
[/QUOTE]
That’s a good approximation of my original reaction to the song. The rhythm of the line and the parallelism worked well to make Deacon Blues at least plausible and to give it that status that Brother Dave or Reverend Ike or Parson Brown might have.
I forget whether it was on the DVD of _Aja_ or in some interview in print that I saw the thing about the fun-poking at Alabama, but wherever it was it was enough out of “plain sight” that the average Alabamian might have missed out on the fact that they were being dissed.
To hear how proudly Bama fans eat up that song, it’s relatively certain that they never got that particular feedback.
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### Author:  [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/4 "2008-04-24T18:06:10Z")
If you go strictly by the lyrics, its a compliment- “they got a name for the **winners** in the world/I want a name when I lose”, meaning, they call one group of winners (Alabama football team) the Crimson Tide, when I lose, call me Deacon Blues.
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### Author:  [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/5 "2008-04-24T18:09:12Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar]
I forget whether it was on the DVD of _Aja_ or in some interview in print that I saw the thing about the fun-poking at Alabama, but wherever it was it was enough out of “plain sight” that the average Alabamian might have missed out on the fact that they were being dissed.
[/QUOTE]
> [@](#):
>
> When asked about the line, "They call Alabama the Crimson Tide, they call me Deacon Blues, Donald Fagen told Rolling Stone magazine: “Walter and I had been working on that song at a house in Malibu. I played him that line, and he said, 'You mean it’s like, ‘They call these cracker a–holes this grandiose name like the Crimson Tide, and I’m this loser, so they call me this other grandiose name, Deacon Blues?’ and I said ‘Yeah!’ He said, ‘Cool, let’s finish it.’”
> **[Error 404 (Not Found)](https://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4042)**
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/6 "2008-04-24T18:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
If you go strictly by the lyrics, its a compliment- “they got a name for the **winners** in the world/I want a name when I lose”, meaning, they call one group of winners (Alabama football team) the Crimson Tide, when I lose, call me Deacon Blues.
[/QUOTE]
Quite so. One of the reasons I liked the song early on. But, as I say, the songwriters added the bit about their choices well after I had formed my early opinions. Their snark is what toned down my early strong pro feelings to neutral-to-negative ones. Then I got the strong pro feelings recharged when I realized that Bama thought the song was praising them when in truth it was/is a diss.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/7 "2008-04-24T18:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor]
> **[Error 404 (Not Found)](https://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4042)**
[/QUOTE]
Great work, **Gfactor**. That’s exactly what I saw!
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### Author:  [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/8 "2008-04-24T18:51:05Z")
Similarly, I never could tell if “turn up The Eagles, the neighbors are listening” is a compliment or insult, as well as the Eagles “steely knives” response.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/9 "2008-04-24T18:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Similarly, I never could tell if “turn up The Eagles, the neighbors are listening” is a compliment or insult, as well as the Eagles “steely knives” response.
[/QUOTE]
Being completely unfamiliar with the song(s), I can’t go beyond saying that I can see how that is (or could be) confusing. You can make a case either way that:
1. Turn up The Eagles to drown out what we’re saying about the neighbors
2. Turn up The Eagles. The neighbors love them.
3. Turn up The Eagles. The neighbors hate them.
Go figure. 🙂
Could you provide more context for the “steely knives” part?
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### Author:  [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/10 "2008-04-24T19:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar]
Being completely unfamiliar with the song(s), I can’t go beyond saying that I can see how that is (or could be) confusing. You can make a case either way that:
1. Turn up The Eagles to drown out what we’re saying about the neighbors
2. Turn up The Eagles. The neighbors love them.
3. Turn up The Eagles. The neighbors hate them.
Go figure. 🙂
Could you provide more context for the “steely knives” part?
[/QUOTE]
The Steely Dan song is [Everything You Did](http://www.lyricsdepot.com/steely-dan/everything-you-did.html).
Then came the Eagles response in Hotel California- “…and in the masters chambers/they gather for their feast/they stab it with their steely knives/but they just can’t kill the beast”.
Either-
1. Dan meant as an insult, Eagles replied with insult
2. Dan meant as an insult, Eagles replied with compliment thinking it was a compliment
3. Dan meant compliment, Eagles responded with compliment
4. Dan meant compliment, Eagles misinterpreted as insult and replied with insult
All so confusing indeed. 🙂
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### Author:  [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/11 "2008-04-24T19:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Either-
1. Dan meant as an insult, Eagles replied with insult
2. Dan meant as an insult, Eagles replied with compliment thinking it was a compliment
3. Dan meant compliment, Eagles responded with compliment
4. Dan meant compliment, Eagles misinterpreted as insult and replied with insult
All so confusing indeed. 🙂
[/QUOTE]
While I’ve no research, it could be -
5) Dan meant it as insult/compliment, Eagles didn’t respond and “steely knives” is just a coincedence.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/12 "2008-04-24T19:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds]
While I’ve no research, it could be -
5) Dan meant it as insult/compliment, Eagles didn’t respond and “steely knives” is just a coincedence.
[/QUOTE]
Well said. Without much more probing into the meaning(s) and innuendo(s) in _Hotel California_, I would find it hard to attribute anything positive or negative toward Steely Dan in the lyrics segment quoted above. There would have to be evidence of much more bad blood between those groups for me to suspect there was much of a dig there. Not that there isn’t. I just don’t see it.
Please refer to my Item #2 in the OP. 🙂
Please let’s not start poking into _American Pie_. I know it’s about Buddy Holly and everybody else Don Mclean ever thought about, but this ain’t the place for that, in spite of my comment
> [@](#):
>
> The whole idea of starting this thread, over and above the foregoing, was to see if other songs have affected you in a similar way (hot-to-cold-to-hot or vice versa) or if your tastes for the lyrics of a song have vacillated over time.
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### Author:  [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/13 "2008-04-24T19:34:01Z")
Could very well be a coincidence on the Eagles part, but steely isn’t a word commonly found in lyrics, and the song was released not long after the Dan mention.
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### Author:  [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/14 "2008-04-24T21:33:55Z")
As one of the board’s self-proclaimed Danophiles, I would refer you to the [Fever Dreams](http://cordmeyer.spymac.com/) website which offers some interpretative glances at most of the Steely Dan oeuvre (some of which are clearly of the half-baked variety) but many pulled from actual interviews by Fagen and Becker during the rare instances that the duo has agreed to discuss the lyrical content of their songs.
The ‘\*call Alabama the Crimson Tide’ \* line I believe was chosen for the simple reason that it fit the meter of the song and didn’t have any sinister / combative motive behind it. The rest of the song seems straight forward in its rambling account of a musician who traveled a long, winding and seedy road to ‘make it’.
Note the verb tense change in the last chorus: “_I’ll learn to work the saxophone_,” becomes clearly “_I learned to work_…”
So the guy has arrived, (_This brother is free_) and making it wasn’t exactly a glorious triumph but hey, it’s what he was striving toward all along.
What’s Donald Fagen’s take on it?
From the above website we have:
> [@](#):
>
> According to Brian Sweet, "when Becker and Fagen were writing the songs for the album, Becker called their ex-tour manager, Warren Wallace, a sports fan and close friend, and asked him for the names of some successful college football teams. He reeled off a few names and was surprised months later to find the most lyrically appropriate–Alabama, the Crimson Tide–used in ‘Deacon Blues’…
> "Once again Becker and Fagen’s adolescent hipsterism and jazz ideology formed the basis of a Steely Dan song. Some years later Donald Fagen explained the intent behind the song: 'Well, the idea of the song was about this kind of alienated kid out in the suburbs who was looking for some sort of alternative values and turns to jazz and hip culture as something to grab on to. And the basic idea is that there’s a kind of culture of losers that he’d rather be part of than the general way of life in America.
> 'You know, they’ve got a name for the winners in the world, and the losers should have some sort of franchise as well. And the name which he has chosen which conveys a certain power is “Deacon Blues.” ’ " (RITY, pp. 121-122)
RITY = Reeling in the Years, Sweet’s fairly decent (not great) biography on Steely Dan.
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### Author:  [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/15 "2008-04-24T21:45:56Z")
Good stuff, **minlokwat** , leaving the issue open as to whose version of the Alabama reference is to be believed. Since I’m back to feeling pretty positive about it, I’ll just say that my up-and-down attitude toward the lyrics never has interfered with my love of the music itself. That sax break ranks with some of the best, including the one in Billy Joel’s _Just The Way You Are_.
There was a time in the 70’s when I had _Aja_ on auto-repeat and would listen to it for hours.
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### Author:  [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/16 "2008-04-25T03:13:05Z")
I don’t claim to know nuthin’ 'bout this, but my guess about the song-writing process is something like this: the song is about some guy wanting to claim himself a ‘name’ when he’s got the blues and feeling like a looser. Well, he’s going to call himself, say, Deacon Blues. Sounds kind of cool.
So he’s feeling kind of contrary, and he want’s to point out the difference between himself and ‘winners’, and he’s got the blues, so what’s the “opposite” of blue, and are there any winners who can be described that way? Well… aha! Crimson is a bright red, and there are ‘winners’ who are described as crimson, and it all fits nicely in the lyrics and tune. Go with it!
I suspect that initially, there was no intended disrespect of Alabama - the words just fit.
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### Author:  [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deacon-blues-etc/446692/17 "2008-04-25T03:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar]
Could you provide more context for the “steely knives” part?
[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you unfamiliar with the lyric or what the Eagles meant by using it?
As I’ve always understood (from a vaguely remembered comment by Don Henley, heard or read years ago), the Eagles put in the line about stabbing the beast with their ‘steely knives’ as a nod (respectful, collegial, etc.) to Steely Dan in acknowledgment of their ‘turn up the Eagles’ line. I’ve read various comments from Henley and Frey and Fagen and Becker who have all acknowledged this, and there never seemed to be any animus at all between them.
Regarding the _Crimson Tide_ lyric, I think there’s a difference between the way they came up with the lyric vs. the meaning of the lyric itself. In other words, they came up with the term while snarking privately between themselves but then used it in a complimentary way in the final lyric.