# dead as a doornail - origins? Why a doornail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655 "2011-01-23T15:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/1 "2011-01-23T15:33:05Z")
dead as a doornail - I’ve heard this all my life. Somehow dead as a rusty can dead as a hammer dead as a hairball Doesn’t have the same zing to it. 😃 Who came up with dead as a doornail? What is a doornail? Is it literally a modern nail driven into a door? I’ve seen old houses where someone hung their robe from a nail. Is that nail a doornail? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/2 "2011-01-23T15:47:22Z")
From the [Word Detective](http://www.word-detective.com/012000.html#doornail): > [@](#): > > As to why a “doornail,” opinions vary a bit. One theory holds that the “doornail” in question was not a nail as we know nails today, but rather a broad, flat plate mounted on the outside of the door to serve as a striking plate for the door knocker. Such a “nail” would be “dead” because it would be fixed tightly to the wood of the door and thus would not ring when struck as metal normally does, but rather give a dull “thump.” This theory is, in the opinion of most authorities, unlikely to be true. > Probably the best theory about “doornail” notes that until the nineteenth century metal nails were both expensive and rarely used, wooden pegs being the norm. Metal nails were used in the construction of doors, however, usually driven clear through the door and then bent over on the other side, rendering them immovable. Such nails were called “dead” in the jargon of carpentry at the time because they could not loosen and work themselves free. “Dead as a doornail” is thus not just a very old saying, but a very old pun as well. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/3 "2011-01-23T16:29:48Z")
Many sayings like this catch on because of snazzy rhyming or alliteration. In this case the alliteration gives it a poetic ring. Also note other similes that are adopted not because of their literal accuracy but rather they have a nice ring to it: **Cool as a cucumber** –well, OK, a cucumber can be cool but hardly the coolest thing I can think of **Drunk as a skunk** –I think “drunk as a redneck on five-cent beer night” works better **Fertile as a turtle** –turtles aren’t more fertile than anything else \*\* Naked as a jaybird\*\*–no idea why this particular animal seems more naked than any other ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/4 "2011-01-23T16:39:55Z")
[slight hijack]–No thread on door-nails would be complete without > [@](#): > > Old Marley was dead as a door-nail 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/5 "2011-01-23T16:43:56Z")
Mr Dickens goes on to raise exactly the same question as the OP: > [@](#): > > Mind! I don’t mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country’s done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/6 "2011-01-23T16:45:18Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > [slight hijack]–No thread on door-nails would be complete without 🙂 Mind! I don’t mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country’s done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/7 "2011-01-23T16:58:47Z")
I understood from several sources that ‘dead as a doornail’ referred to the use of nails to attach doors with strap hinges way back when. The hinges were mounted on the outside of a home, wrought iron nails went all the way through the hinge and wall (or door), and then were not simply bent over once on the other side, but doubled over so that the nail was pushed back into the door in the opposite direction. This made it impossible to pull the nails out from the outside to break into a house. They nails were considered dead because a nail bent over once could be restraigtened for use again, but when bent over twice were considered useless thereafter. The reuse of nails was common, and wrought iron nails were valuable. According to a History Channel special on hardware stores, the blacksmith shop was the original hardware store, and smiths spent a lot of time making the most popular item, nails. They also claimed the value of nails was so great that old homes would be burned down so that the nails could be recovered from the ashes, and the primary reason for the development of general purpose screws was to secure modern jamb hinges that replaced the older strap hinges. ---
**Author:** ![Topologist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/topologist/32/3208_2.png) [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/8 "2011-01-23T17:42:48Z")
Just stepping in to add that this question comes up periodically. Here are two previous threads: [**Dead as a doornail**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174333) and [**What is the origin of “Deader than a door nail?”**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=234964). The second of these points out that Shakespeare used it in Henry VI. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/9 "2011-01-23T17:52:53Z")
Years ago, I heard “dead as a dodo” used occasionally. But, not recently. Star Trek fans say “He’s Dead Jim” a reference to an over used line in the original series. Thanks for the replies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/10 "2011-01-23T20:29:06Z")
I saw this thread, and knew that the Dope would not disappoint. Thank you, **samclem** et al. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/11 "2011-01-23T20:38:18Z")
And yet nobody here got the origin. It is another Shakespeare cliche. [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html) Old Willy probably used doornail because it was alliterative and in meter. > **['As dead as a doornail' - the meaning and origin of this phrase](https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-dead-as-a-doornail.html)** > > The meaning and origin of the phrase 'As dead as a doornail'. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/12 "2011-01-23T20:43:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > .. wrought iron nails went all the way through the hinge and wall (or door), and then were not simply bent over once on the other side, but doubled over so that the nail was pushed back into the door in the opposite direction. … “Clinching”, [the process](http://blog.lostartpress.com/2009/03/22/Clinching+Nails+Sometimes+Teeth.aspx), [a cut away view](http://www.shur-fast.com/english/images/ClinchNail.GIF). CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/13 "2011-01-23T22:03:11Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And yet nobody here got the origin. It is another Shakespeare cliche. [135 Phrases Coined By William Shakespeare - Phrase Finder](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/phrases-sayings-shakespeare.html) Your own link says that Shakespeare _wasn’t_ the origin: > [@](#): > > There’s a reference to it in print in 1350: > > “For but ich haue bote of mi bale I am ded as dorenail.” That predates Shakespeare’s use of it by more than 240 years. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/14 "2011-01-23T22:16:51Z")
Well count me wrong. I coulda sworn it was Henry VI, but wrong I am. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/15 "2011-01-23T22:53:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There’s a reference to it in print in 1350: > > > > “For but ich haue bote of mi bale I am ded as dorenail.” > > That predates Shakespeare’s use of it by more than 240 years. That quote, which was in the link, actually was from ca. 1375. The 1350 cite in the OED is from > [@](#): > > inventory and valuation of stores belonging to the works at London Bridge \ also 3000 of “dornail,” value 2s 6d. per 1000 which was a list of all kinds of nails from [Two Thousand Years of Gild Life Or an Outline of the History and Development ... - J. Malet Lambert - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=pgCqYEbmnFYC&pg=PA258&dq=dornail&hl=en&ei=R6s8TdmlJYScgQesmfDDCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=dornail&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/16 "2011-01-24T06:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > inventory and valuation of stores belonging to the works at London Bridge \ also 3000 of “dornail,” value 2s 6d. per 1000 Wait, that’s a 3 penny nail – way too small for a door. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/17 "2011-01-24T21:25:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Wait, that’s a 3 penny nail – way too small for a door. \ So “three-penny nail” referred to the price for 100 of them? And the price was stable enough for a long enough time that the term got fixed in usage to where it’s survived after all these centuries of inflation? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/18 "2011-01-24T22:27:47Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > That quote, which was in the link, actually was from ca. 1375. > > The 1350 cite in the OED is from which was a list of all kinds of nails > > > [@](#): > > > > inventory and valuation of stores belonging to the works at London Bridge \ also 3000 of “dornail,” value 2s 6d. per 1000 What does the 2s represent there? The penny was used to designate the price for 100 nails in the 15th century. I would assume some nail producer standarized the unit around the nail size at some particular point in time based on their current prices. But the difference in price between the 14th and 15th centuries isn’t going to explain .6 pennies per 100 doornails if they have any relation to the standard sizes used today. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/19 "2011-01-24T22:50:53Z")
2s 6d, under the old British system, meant “two shillings sixpence”, or, since a shilling is 12 pence, a total of 30 pence. And 30 pence for 1000 nails would, of course, be thrupenny for 100. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-as-a-doornail-origins-why-a-doornail/568655/20 "2011-01-25T07:14:12Z")
The “penny measure” of nails represents the price of 100 of them in A.D. 1500. I didn’t worry about the inflation because I was making a JOKE.