# Dead spelunker to be left in cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441 "2009-11-30T06:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/21 "2009-11-30T17:59:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I expect most things would be. And yet id thinks it’s ok for fighting Cacodemons. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/22 "2009-11-30T18:10:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > How many hundreds of caves have you visited? How many thousands of hours have your racked up underground ? How many miles of virgin cave have you surveyed or discovered ? How many new caves have you discovered ? How many days have you camped underground ? How many thousands of feet below the surface have you been ? How many miles/travel days have you been from a cave entrance underground ? Whats your NSS number roughly ? I’m not interested in measuring your penis, nor in having you measure mine. But to establish that I do have some idea of what I’m talking about, I spent a number of years spelunking in the SE US and have occasionally gone caving in the SW US since I moved here 13 years ago. I never joined the NSS, so I have no number to give you (but I note that this is a favorite way of measuring penises, since the lower the number, the longer you’ve been a member). > [@billfish678](#): > > Yes, caves are inherently dangerous if you are retard with a flashlight. So is a river if you cant swim and dont wear a lifejacket , or an airplane if you havent had any flight lessons. > > MOST caves are not dangerous in any reasonable version of the definition if you have any idea of what you are doing. There are about 10,000 active “real” cavers in any given year. And god only know how many rednecks with just a flashlight. About 1 a year die, and even then its often a “what the hell were they thinking” situation, not an inherently dangerous cave. And this fatality appears to be one of those cases. > > If you can find some descriptions by REAL cavers that this cave is significantly more dangerous than any other random run of the mill piddly cave, post em here and I’ll retract my statements. > > As for safety, I’ve read and backordered just about everything the NSS has ever published on safety and accident reports, up to about 8 years ago. So, I’m current on everything from the 60’s ? to the early 2000’s. And I still keep up with things internet wise. Reading about caving accidents, climbing accidents, cave diving accidents, scuba accidents, aviation accidents , and all sorts of random recreational accidents is a “hobbie” of mine. I’ve probably racked up thousands of hours just reading those. And not for some grim voyerism, but because you can see what REALLY causes most accidents…and its not very often that just “shit just happens” is the real reason either. > > So, don’t be giving me any shit on lack of safety awareness or lack of knowledge . I’ll give you plenty of shit when you say something stupid like “cave does not equal automatically dangerous”. If it wasn’t an inherently dangerous activity, you wouldn’t need even the flashlight, let alone the helmets, ropes, beaners, ways to mark your path, etc. Caving is a dangerous activity. Period. If it wasn’t dangerous, you wouldn’t need to add the qualifier “if you have any idea of what you are doing”, but even that is totally false. Just as working with explosives, or being at great heights, or being underwater is always dangerous, so is caving. Even when “you have any idea of what you are doing”. ETA: Proof that I am right that caving is _always_ dangerous: look at the photo right below the “IMPORTANT DATES IN NUTTY PUTTY HISTORY” section. [cite](http://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com/history.html) Since I haven’t addressed the OP yet, I’ll just say that I haven’t been to Nutty Putty Cave, but I’ll trust the opinions of the people in charge that removing the body would have been unnecessarily dangerous for the people involved in the recovery effort. I’m kind of curious as to why the cave would need to be shut down permanently, but I see that there have been at least 6 stuck cavers who had to be rescued, and at least 6 deaths there in just the last 4 years. I also see that this isn’t the first time the cave has been closed, and that 2 other caves were permanently sealed in January 2009, so it seems likely that there is good reason to seal Nutty Putty as well. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/23 "2009-11-30T18:11:34Z")
**Snowboarder Bo** So you mean caving is dangerous like snowboarding? Even if 100 people died in that cave in the last year it wouldn’t be a valid reason to close the cave. It would just be a valid reason to post up how dangerous that cave is. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/24 "2009-11-30T18:21:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Snowboarder Bo** So you mean caving is dangerous like snowboarding? But that would be different, because thats something he actually (maybe) knows something about. Dangerous is all relative. People find ways to kill themselves doing the most mundane of things, Often, because they are being as careless and stupid as is apparently possible. And, on rare occasion, shit actually does happen. But it is not the norm. Does that mean everything is dangerous? A cave ,that has a space somewhere ,that some person TOO big to fit into the space they tried to fit into, is not, in any cavers that I personally knows opinion, a dangerous cave. Unless nearly every cave that exists is a dangerous cave. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/25 "2009-11-30T18:29:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Snowboarder Bo** So you mean caving is dangerous like snowboarding? Yep. > [@](#): > > Even if 100 people died in that cave in the last year it wouldn’t be a valid reason to close the cave. It would just be a valid reason to post up how dangerous that cave is. What if the 100 people died because the cave walls were unstable and collapses happened with some regularity? Would that be a valid reason to close the cave? See, it’s not the number of deaths that matters, it’s how they occurred. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/26 "2009-11-30T18:30:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > But that would be different, because thats something he actually (maybe) knows something about. Your claims that caving isn’t dangerous are disingenuous. Caving is dangerous just like all sorts of other dangerous hobbies where people get hurt regularly but can save their lives with the right preparation and knowledge. Like Snowboarding or any of the other things he mentioned. One need not be a caver to know this, and the idea that we must be is patently absurd. I am not a caver, but I have been inside caves and I’ve seen the slick floors where water drips down such as in Carlsbad Caverns. Caving is essentially the same as rock climbing only underground, and no one in their right mind would argue that rock climbing isn’t dangerous. > [@](#): > > Dangerous is all relative. People find ways to kill themselves doing the most mundane of things, Often, because they are being as careless and stupid as is apparently possible. And, on rare occasion, shit actually does happen. But it is not the norm. Does that mean everything is dangerous? Some things are more dangerous than others. Yeah I might cut the tip of my thumb off preparing a steak, and I might break my leg caving. The thing is, if I cut the tip of my thumb off, I am not going to bleed to death. If I am in a cave, and I break my leg it might be difficult for rescue personnel to get to me. > [@](#): > > A cave ,that has a space somewhere ,that some person TOO big to fit into the space they tried to fit into, is not, in any cavers that I personally knows opinion, a dangerous cave. Unless nearly every cave that exists is a dangerous cave. That’s a different argument. You are making a common logical fallacy that I’ll call the ‘binary fallacy’. Where you present us with the options that something is either dangerous or it’s not. You say caving isn’t dangerous, which is just flat out wrong, and everyone here knows that it’s flat out wrong. You can say, “This cave isn’t dangerous compared to other caves.”, in the way ski slopes have designations. Maybe it’s not a Double Black Diamond cave, but that doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous, particularly if half a dozen people have died in it over the past four years. Maybe if you’d lay off the hyperbole, we’d get a more accurate picture, rather than your, “Shut Up, I’m an expert, I know more than you!”, spiel. I am willing to buy that you know something of what you are talking about, but you are discrediting yourself by saying that caving itself isn’t dangerous when we all know very well that it is, just as skiing and snowboarding are dangerous. BTW, I’ve never been snowboarding either, and I don’t feel like I need to do it to know that there is an attendant danger. That being said, I still think the number of people who die or get injured in that cave is irrelevant. I think an ‘use at your own risk’ caveat should apply. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/27 "2009-11-30T18:31:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m not interested in measuring your penis, nor in having you measure mine. But to establish that I do have some idea of what I’m talking about, I spent a number of years spelunking in the SE US and have occasionally gone caving in the SW US since I moved here 13 years ago. I never joined the NSS, so I have no number to give you (but I note that this is a favorite way of measuring penises, since the lower the number, the longer you’ve been a member). > > . So,you are a “real” caver that never bothered to become a member of the ONLY major (and nearly the only period) US organization that promotes the protection, safe exploration, and study of caves. Not even for one measley year to get the equivalent of a phone/address book of every organized cave in the United States ? Not even once for some pretty pictures/magazines and some ads so you’d know where to order shit. Or where the big get togethers are ? So, basically you are just a dabbler, a social outcast, or someone with no real interest with finding out whats really going on in the caver world. Hell, are you even a member of a local grotto? Yep, your a real caver, I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/28 "2009-11-30T18:31:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yep. > > What if the 100 people died because the cave walls were unstable and collapses happened with some regularity? Would that be a valid reason to close the cave? See, it’s not the number of deaths that matters, it’s how they occurred. No it wouldn’t, if people want to risk their lives climbing down a cave that is prone to collapse that’s their business. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/29 "2009-11-30T18:34:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So,you are a “real” caver that never bothered to become a member of the ONLY major (and nearly the only period) US organization that promotes the protection, safe exploration, and study of caves. Not even for one measley year to get the equivalent of a phone/address book of every organized cave in the United States ? Not even once for some pretty pictures/magazines and some ads so you’d know where to order shit. Or where the big get togethers are ? > So, basically you are just a dabbler, a social outcast, or someone with no real interest with finding out whats really going on in the caver world. > > Hell, are you even a member of a local grotto? > > Yep, your a real caver, I can tell. Jeez, man, relax. I also use to do some caving, and never joined the NSS. I knew there was a big get-together in Blacksburg but never went. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/30 "2009-11-30T18:38:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > But that would be different, because thats something he actually (maybe) knows something about. You had 11 minutes to read my post where I make it clear that I do have experience spelunking. This was a pretty pathetic attempt to insult me and impugn my reputation, and therefore my statements. Sorry it didn’t work out for you the way you wanted. > [@billfish678](#): > > Dangerous is all relative. People find ways to kill themselves doing the most mundane of things, Often, because they are being as careless and stupid as is apparently possible. And, on rare occasion, shit actually does happen. But it is not the norm. Does that mean everything is dangerous? > > A cave ,that has a space somewhere ,that some person TOO big to fit into the space they tried to fit into, is not, in any cavers that I personally knows opinion, a dangerous cave. Unless nearly every cave that exists is a dangerous cave. And as I’ve already stated, and which you should know given your vast experience caving, is that every cave is a dangerous cave. Every grizzly bear is a dangerous grizzly bear. You are trying to handwave away this notion, but it will not work, no matter how many qualifiers you put on it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/31 "2009-11-30T18:38:52Z")
Fanboy alert. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/32 "2009-11-30T18:46:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No it wouldn’t, if people want to risk their lives climbing down a cave that is prone to collapse that’s their business. Normally I would agree with you that risks that people want to take are their own business, but apparently there’s more to this than we know, and I really can’t get all worked up about filling in a hole with concrete. And since the State of Utah owns the site, if the state feels that this is the best option, then they have every right to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/33 "2009-11-30T18:47:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m not interested in measuring your penis, nor in having you measure mine. > [@billfish678](#): > > So, basically you are just a dabbler, a social outcast, or someone with no real interest with finding out whats really going on in the caver world. This is out of line for this forum. Both of you are to stop it now. Take any personal issues to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/34 "2009-11-30T18:48:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I understand the reason why they would leave his body. > > But why are they sealing up the cave? Spelunkers die sometimes, it’s a dangerous profession. I was kind of wondering that, too. Is it supposed to be out of respect for the body? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/35 "2009-11-30T18:49:33Z")
As a rule of thumb, what seems fair is to give relatives a chance to pay for, and execute, any body recovery. I’m opposed to using public funds for it. As far as sealing up the cave, I’m opposed to that too. But I think the idea the government should somehow protect us from things we want to do that create danger only for ourselves is a silly and unsupportable notion, whether it’s seatbelts, helmets or spelunking. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/36 "2009-11-30T18:50:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Normally I would agree with you that risks that people want to take are their own business, but apparently there’s more to this than we know, and I really can’t get all worked up about filling in a hole with concrete. > > And since the State of Utah owns the site, if the state feels that this is the best option, then they have every right to do it. And I can still see it as a pointless destruction of the landscape and the cave’s ecosystem while arbitrarily limiting our liberties incrementally. It has nothing to do with what the state has the ‘right’ to do. They have the power to do it and if they want to do it they will. But I can still think it’s silly nanny-state bullshit that harms the environment for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/37 "2009-11-30T19:01:31Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > As a rule of thumb, what seems fair is to give relatives a chance to pay for, and execute, any body recovery. > > I’m opposed to using public funds for it. > > As far as sealing up the cave, I’m opposed to that too. But I think the idea the government should somehow protect us from things we want to do that create danger only for ourselves is a silly and unsupportable notion, whether it’s seatbelts, helmets or spelunking. The problem is that this created danger for the rescue personnel, too. ---
**Author:** ![3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/47e85d/32.png) [@3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3_20_59_or_bust)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/38 "2009-11-30T19:06:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > As a rule of thumb, what seems fair is to give relatives a chance to pay for, and execute, any body recovery. > > I’m opposed to using public funds for it. > > As far as sealing up the cave, I’m opposed to that too. But I think the idea the government should somehow protect us from things we want to do that create danger only for ourselves is a silly and unsupportable notion, whether it’s seatbelts, helmets or spelunking. I agree only to a point. The state also has to gauge their own risk/liability here. If people die in a public/state cave or park, then the state is opening themselves up for potential lawsuits, no matter how the individuals have gone about getting themselves into danger. If the state seals the cave up, it takes away some of their risk. You may not agree with it, but I can definitely see why the state might want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/39 "2009-11-30T19:07:12Z")
From [this map](http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/pdf/NuttyPuttyCaveMap1.pdf) (warning - PDF) it looks like it wouldn’t be hard to seal off only the half of the cave with the body in it (Bob’s Push is the area where the body is, I think). The cave splits in two directions right at the entrance. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/40 "2009-11-30T19:10:05Z")
I figured they were sealing up the cave out of concern that the body may be disturbed, not to protect the public. It’s a tomb now, so they don’t want people climbing around in it. As for the cave being dangerous - I don’t know what they’ve been doing to try to free him to this point, but is it possible that the attempted rescue operation has caused damage to the cave that might make it unstable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=3)