# Dead spelunker to be left in cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441 "2009-11-30T06:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/41 "2009-11-30T19:11:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And I can still see it as a pointless destruction of the landscape and the cave’s ecosystem while arbitrarily limiting our liberties incrementally. > > It has nothing to do with what the state has the ‘right’ to do. They have the power to do it and if they want to do it they will. But I can still think it’s silly nanny-state bullshit that harms the environment for no good reason. You can see it anyway you want, but a hole in the ground isn’t really “landscape”, and the cave has no ecosystem of any consequence. > [@NuttyPuttyCave.com/geology.html](#): > > Biologically speaking, Nutty Putty contains the usual fungi growing in rat droppings, but no other plant life was observed. There is a family of mice in a small nest near the entrance which are usually unafraid of people. Cave crickets are often observed near the entrance, and on one occasion a number of very small ones were seen about 20 ft from the entrance. And as for “arbitrarily limiting our liberties incrementally”, you’ve already told us that even collapsing walls isn’t a good enough reason to seal off a cave, so I’ll just assume that any reason given will be seen as “arbitrary” to you. And you can, of course, think it’s “silly nanny-state bullshit that harms the environment for no good reason”, even though it won’t harm the environment, and there may be good reasons (at least, things that most people would call good reasons) for sealing off the cave beyond this one man’s death and wanting his remains to be inviolable. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/42 "2009-11-30T19:15:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You can see it anyway you want, but a hole in the ground isn’t really “landscape”, and the cave has no ecosystem of any consequence. Actually it is landscape by definition, and it does have an ecosystem whether or not you value that. Using those words incorrectly doesn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/43 "2009-11-30T19:16:52Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > As a rule of thumb, what seems fair is to give relatives a chance to pay for, and execute, any body recovery. I think part of the problem is that the family may (just a WAG on this part) actually want to leave the body there. Because, you know, he died there and its a sacred place now and caves are dangerous and he died in this cave because its dangerous and why would anybody want to go in a cave in the first place, so therefor it should be sealed up kinda thinking. And, if they don’t think that way, I’d also WAG there is fair chance the sheriff thinks that way. Or they both may feel that way. I vehemently dont agree with that sorta thinking, obviously. But I can certainly understand it, and IMO its probably the default mindset for people in this sorta situation that have no clue. They may also think it actually is dangerous (very wrongly IMO) for people to try to recover the body. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/44 "2009-11-30T19:22:17Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > I figured they were sealing up the cave out of concern that the body may be disturbed, not to protect the public. It’s a tomb now, so they don’t want people climbing around in it. As for the cave being dangerous - I don’t know what they’ve been doing to try to free him to this point, but is it possible that the attempted rescue operation has caused damage to the cave that might make it unstable? Second part first. Very unlikey that it made it unstable. BTW most caves are NOT unstable. Many smaller passages are extremely stable for that matter. And I am not getting any internet impressions that that particular area was remotely unstable in the first place (not that I havent personally experienced areas that were scary unstable…but thats not the norm). First part, if nothing else, you sure as heck dont wanna be in a cave thats got about 200 pounds of unburied rotting flesh in it. Wouldnt suprise me if the whole cave was nasty air wise for a good long time ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/45 "2009-11-30T19:24:45Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Second part first. > > Very unlikey that it made it unstable. BTW most caves are NOT unstable. Many smaller passages are extremely stable for that matter. And I am not getting any internet impressions that that particular area was remotely unstable in the first place (not that I havent personally experienced areas that were scary unstable…but thats not the norm). > > First part, if nothing else, you sure as heck dont wanna be in a cave thats got about 200 pounds of unburied rotting flesh in it. Wouldnt suprise me if the whole cave was nasty air wise for a good long time Wild animals never crawl into caves and die? One body can foul up a cave that badly? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/46 "2009-11-30T19:25:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Actually it is landscape by definition, and it does have an ecosystem whether or not you value that. Using those words incorrectly doesn’t change anything. Congratulations on finally buying that dictionary! Now what will we get you for Festivus this year? I didn’t use either word incorrectly. Perhaps you did tho: > [@dictionary.com](#): > > ec⋅o⋅sys⋅tem  [ek-oh-sis-tuhm, ee-koh-] > –noun Ecology. > a system formed by the interaction of a community of organisms with their environment. Because there are no organisms living within the cave, there really isn’t an ecosystem. And, since the entrance to Nutty Putty Cave is a hole in the ground that took 3 years to find once a caver started looking for it, you’ll have to excuse my thinking that this is not a notable feature of the environs. And the cave itself holds nothing of any real interest, besides the fact of the cave itself. > [@](#): > > **Dale said it was 3 years of several trips out there before they finally found the Nutty Putty Cave**. He said that they came upon the cave and entered the first time and explored down the Big Slide and got to the end and they decided to call the exploration off when they got to the edge of the 15’ drop off where the cable ladder is now installed. When asked what he thought when he came to the surface he stated in a reflective gruff tone,\*\* “I didn’t like the cave!” Then he added, “But you have to understand that there were lots of other newly discovered caves with great things to see. There were no great features in this cave.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/47 "2009-11-30T19:30:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Congratulations on finally buying that dictionary! Now what will we get you for Festivus this year? > > I didn’t use either word incorrectly. Perhaps you did tho: > > Because there are no organisms living within the cave, there really isn’t an ecosystem. > > And, since the entrance to Nutty Putty Cave is a hole in the ground that took 3 years to find once a caver started looking for it, you’ll have to excuse my thinking that this is not a notable feature of the environs. And the cave itself holds nothing of any real interest, besides the fact of the cave itself. From the cite you gave me it said there is fungus living on rodent shit. So that’s an ecosystem. I don’t need to buy a dictionary because I already know how to use the word correctly. I know doublespeak is the lingua franca of post-modernism, but you are selectively using words to suit the bias you are proposing, that it’s ‘not a big deal’, and trying to prove that this opinion is somehow objective. Just because you don’t care about it, and it’s insignificant IN YOUR OPINION, doesn’t make it not landscape and not an ecosystem. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/48 "2009-11-30T19:42:04Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Second part first. > > Very unlikey that it made it unstable. BTW most caves are NOT unstable. Many smaller passages are extremely stable for that matter. And I am not getting any internet impressions that that particular area was remotely unstable in the first place (not that I havent personally experienced areas that were scary unstable…but thats not the norm). Of course I didn’t mean to suggest the cave started out unstable. I just figure when 100 people converge on a cave and spend 24 hours in an increasingly frantic battle to save someone, concern for the lasting impact they’ll have on the cave is unlikely to be foremost in their minds and all priority will be given to doing whatever they can or need to in order to facilitate the rescue. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/49 "2009-11-30T19:46:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Wild animals never crawl into caves and die? One body can foul up a cave that badly? Most animals don’t weigh pushing 200 pounds for starters. Most dont crawl into caves to die in the first place. For seconds, I’ve never been in a cave with a rotting human body in it. For thirds, I HAVE had to hike past gutted deer/wild boars/whatevers OUT IN THE OPEN AIR that made me gage for weeks on end hiking past them as they decayed. Contained in a tiny cave like that ? Could be pretty darn bad. Most I’ve ever encountered is once in a great while dead bat, mouse, rat, snake, or turtle. Those werent terribly pleasant either. Then again, the body might go the desicating mummy route but I wouldnt count on it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/50 "2009-11-30T19:51:48Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > Of course I didn’t mean to suggest the cave started out unstable. I just figure when 100 people converge on a cave and spend 24 hours in an increasingly frantic battle to save someone, concern for the lasting impact they’ll have on the cave is unlikely to be foremost in their minds and all priority will be given to doing whatever they can or need to in order to facilitate the rescue. Fair enough. But without having actually been there? My educated guess is no. And I’d bet good money that a good fraction of those 100 people where the sheriff, the emts, the firefighters, and other non cavers sitting around on the surface looking all worried and important. If a cave is stable, it takes much to make it unstable, particularly a tiny passage. Just because a bunch of people are there at one time aint gonnna do it. Now, maybe that passage was unstable, but I seriously dont think so. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/51 "2009-11-30T20:10:36Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Most animals don’t weigh pushing 200 pounds for starters. Most dont crawl into caves to die in the first place. For seconds, I’ve never been in a cave with a rotting human body in it. For thirds, I HAVE had to hike past gutted deer/wild boars/whatevers OUT IN THE OPEN AIR that made me gage for weeks on end hiking past them as they decayed. Contained in a tiny cave like that ? Could be pretty darn bad. > > Most I’ve ever encountered is once in a great while dead bat, mouse, rat, snake, or turtle. Those werent terribly pleasant either. > > Then again, the body might go the desicating mummy route but I wouldnt count on it. Well, I am not surprised at the notion that a body can foul up an enclosed space, but I am surprised at the extent to which you are claiming it will foul up the cave. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/52 "2009-11-30T20:20:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well, I am not surprised at the notion that a body can foul up an enclosed space, but I am surprised at the extent to which you are claiming it will foul up the cave. One summer I was hiking to a cave about 3 times a week, for a couple months on end. Some hunter had killed a couple wild boars, gutted then, and left them next to the road. Keep in mind this was out in an OPEN field. For 2 months give or take you had to hold your breath and run for a couple hundred feet to pass them. It was very gag worthy, even if you didnt look at it. A (probably slowly) decaying large human body in basically a nearly sealed small cave. Oh yeah IMO it could be grim. Not say it would have to be, but I am not hard pressed to imagine it would be either. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/53 "2009-11-30T20:28:11Z")
As a long time climber, bouldering and free mostly, who has climbed all over the world and lost three friends to climbing in twelve years (all extremely experienced) and have seen a slew of nasty injuries I can attest to how dangerous climbing is. I can certainly see where caving falls into that category. I can also see the state closing a cave for peoples’ protection. I know the average mountain rescue costs over $10,000. If a helicopter is involved forget it. I don’t see it as being nanny-statish unless you’re prepared to say the state bears no responsibility in rescuing you which is rubbish. By involving yourself in a dangerous activity you always bear the responsibility of that risk including others if you screw up or just have bad luck befall you. It’s a bit of a social contract. I can also see how caves can be more dangerous than a rock face in the sense that anyone can go stumbling blindly into one and get over there head. Nobody stands at the bottom of El Cap and says “hey, I’m just gonna start climbing that” if they aren’t an experienced climber. I also don’t see this particular cave as being ecologically important at all. From all accounts it’s a hole in the ground with no sensitive wildlife at all. As for why the body is being left? It’s simply that it’s too costly and too dangerous. A very close friend died on Snow Creek Wall in the Cascades four years ago. It took nine rescue climbers nearly two days to recover the body. It was doable so they did it, but it was still dangerous and cost many thousands of dollars when all was said and done. Had he fallen into a much more inaccessible area they themselves stated they wouldn’t have tried the recovery. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/54 "2009-11-30T20:34:22Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > As a long time climber, bouldering and free mostly, who has climbed all over the world and lost three friends to climbing in twelve years (all extremely experienced) and have seen a slew of nasty injuries I can attest to how dangerous climbing is. I can certainly see where caving falls into that category. > > . And your caving experience is? How many climber rescues are there vs caving rescues? How many climbing routes/mountains have been permanently closed to climbing because somebody died there? How many of those rescues were because the climbers were doing stupid stuff any reasonable climber wouldnt have done ? Is climbing really dangerous, or is it because you know cutting edge people that do stuff most weekend climbers wouldnt even think of ? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/55 "2009-11-30T20:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=billfish678] So, basically you are just a dabbler, a social outcast, or someone with no real interest with finding out whats really going on in the caver world. [/quote] Does anyone else see a certain irony in calling someone a social outcast because they don’t spend enough time hanging out in caves?😃 Sealing up the cave seems a bit extreme to me (although I don’t know shit about spelunking). It sounds sort of like draining a lake and filling it in with concrete because some kid drowned there. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/56 "2009-11-30T20:47:07Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And your caving experience is? How many climber rescues are there vs caving rescues? How many climbing routes/mountains have been permanently closed to climbing because somebody died there? How many of those rescues were because the climbers were doing stupid stuff any reasonable climber wouldnt have done ? > > Is climbing really dangerous, or is it because you know cutting edge people that do stuff most weekend climbers wouldnt even think of ? No, climbing is really dangerous. For everyone who does it, noob and pro alike. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/57 "2009-11-30T20:50:43Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > One summer I was hiking to a cave about 3 times a week, for a couple months on end. Some hunter had killed a couple wild boars, gutted then, and left them next to the road. Keep in mind this was out in an OPEN field. For 2 months give or take you had to hold your breath and run for a couple hundred feet to pass them. It was very gag worthy, even if you didnt look at it. > > A (probably slowly) decaying large human body in basically a nearly sealed small cave. Oh yeah IMO it could be grim. Not say it would have to be, but I am not hard pressed to imagine it would be either. Yeah, wow. It definitely makes sense and I’ll take your word for it, but it’s not something I considered. > [@msmith537](#): > > Does anyone else see a certain irony in calling someone a social outcast because they don’t spend enough time hanging out in caves?😃 LOL, now that you mention it… > [@](#): > > Sealing up the cave seems a bit extreme to me (although I don’t know shit about spelunking). It sounds sort of like draining a lake and filling it in with concrete because some kid drowned there. Yea, that’s how I see it too. > [@billfish678](#): > > And your caving experience is? How many climber rescues are there vs caving rescues? How many climbing routes/mountains have been permanently closed to climbing because somebody died there? How many of those rescues were because the climbers were doing stupid stuff any reasonable climber wouldnt have done ? > > Is climbing really dangerous, or is it because you know cutting edge people that do stuff most weekend climbers wouldnt even think of ? Well, I think the difference here is that a climbing rescue is EASIER than a cave rescue. In both instances it involves climbing rock faces, but in one you can use a helicopter, in the other you cannot. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/58 "2009-11-30T20:57:57Z")
Climbing’s dangers are different than cavings’ dangers, in general. Caving you’ve got hypothermia and losing light as the most dangerous things. You \*can \*fall off a rock while caving, but mostly you’re not climbing stuff anywhere near as steep (just a lot wetter). You slide more than fall. Often there’s not really room to fall - you’re climbing a chimney. Half this cave could be sealed off very easily, as I mentioned in an earlier post, linking to a map of the cave. The guy’s decaying body wouldn’t need to stink up everything. And I doubt that the side of the cave that you get to if you turn left when you go in is unstable. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/59 "2009-11-30T21:01:27Z")
In regards to caving vs climbing vs whatever rescue expenses. Yes, but helicopters cost big money. Real Cavers, who will rescue anybody underground, will do it for free. And really, they are the ones that know how to do it. Most of the real cost of a cave rescue (usually) is the non-caving rescue professionals that get paid to do nothing but standing on the surface wasting time and looking worried. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/60 "2009-11-30T21:01:58Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > In regards to caving vs climbing vs whatever rescue expenses. > Yes, but helicopters cost big money. Real Cavers, who will rescue anybody underground, will do it for free. And really, they are the ones that know how to do it. Most of the real cost of a cave rescue (usually) is the non-caving rescue professionals that get paid to do nothing but standing on the surface wasting time and looking worried. Ahh, ok. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=4)