# Dead spelunker to be left in cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441 "2009-11-30T06:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/61 "2009-11-30T21:03:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > sealing up the cave seems a bit extreme to me (although i don’t know shit about spelunking). It sounds sort of like draining a lake and filling it in with concrete because some kid drowned there. bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/62 "2009-11-30T21:18:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Sealing up the cave seems a bit extreme to me (although I don’t know shit about spelunking). It sounds sort of like draining a lake and filling it in with concrete because some kid drowned there. Yeah, I don’t know anything about caves or cave exploration, but this was my reaction, too. I guess it would be kind of gross to go inside with a dead body tehre, but sealing it up for all time? It would make sense to maybe warn people off going there for a while and then after it decayed, maybe people could go in again. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/63 "2009-11-30T21:24:58Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And your caving experience is? How many climber rescues are there vs caving rescues? How many climbing routes/mountains have been permanently closed to climbing because somebody died there? How many of those rescues were because the climbers were doing stupid stuff any reasonable climber wouldnt have done ? > > Is climbing really dangerous, or is it because you know cutting edge people that do stuff most weekend climbers wouldnt even think of ? Boy, you’re testy. Did I claim any great caving experience? No. Are you honestly telling me that two pastimes that involve clambering over rock and 90% of the same gear are not in the least bit correlative? Firstly, it’s impossible to close off a mountain or rock face so that point is moot. You can close off a cave in a day. Secondly it takes far more experience and skill to climb a sheer face than it takes for some drunk campers to stumble into a cave to see what’s in it and get themselves in hot water which requires rescue crews to risk their lives to help them. That was my point, and I thought it was pretty clear. As for the number of rescues? In Yosemite National Park alone YOSAR made 184 rescues in 2002 which is about 10 below average. Four of those were deaths. Of those 34 were climbing related (most are hiking related) as were three of the deaths. The totals for the rescues were almost half a million dollars for Yosemite alone. [http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/sar/stats/02stats.htm](http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/sar/stats/02stats.htm) The NPS keeps stats on all the major parks if you care to check it out. They don’t have any caving stats that I can find. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/64 "2009-11-30T21:28:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > In regards to caving vs climbing vs whatever rescue expenses. > Yes, but helicopters cost big money. Real Cavers, who will rescue anybody underground, will do it for free. And really, they are the ones that know how to do it. Most of the real cost of a cave rescue (usually) is the non-caving rescue professionals that get paid to do nothing but standing on the surface wasting time and looking worried. LOL. Real Cavers? With capital letters no less? Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/65 "2009-11-30T21:41:49Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > LOL. Real Cavers? With capital letters no less? Give me a break. Thats trade marked by the way. You owe me five dollars. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/66 "2009-11-30T21:45:16Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > . Secondly it takes far more experience and skill to climb a sheer face than it takes for some drunk campers to stumble into a cave to see what’s in it and get themselves in hot water which requires rescue crews to risk their lives to help them. > > The NPS keeps stats on all the major parks if you care to check it out. They don’t have any caving stats that I can find. So is it that caves are danerous or that most people are idiots ? So, basically, there are lots of climbing and hiking and whatever rescues, but caving ones are so rare you can’t even find some numbers ? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/67 "2009-11-30T22:02:14Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Half this cave could be sealed off very easily, as I mentioned in an earlier post, linking to a map of the cave. The guy’s decaying body wouldn’t need to stink up everything. And I doubt that the side of the cave that you get to if you turn left when you go in is unstable. I’m not sure you’d even have to seal off half of the cave. Reading stuff online from people that knew the cave, most seem to think that Jones likely got stuck in a tunnel known as The Scout Eater. Which was so named because two pairs of Boy Scouts got stuck in it in two separate incidences in the past. _If_ that’s the case, looking at this **PDF** [map of the cave](http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/pdf/NuttyPuttyCaveMap1.pdf), it seems like you could seal off just the offshoot tunnel that leads to the Scout Eater well before where the body would be, keeping people at a respectful distance from the remains while still leaving most of the cave open. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/68 "2009-11-30T22:06:23Z")
here [http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/SavingNuttyPuttyCave/](http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/SavingNuttyPuttyCave/) ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/69 "2009-11-30T22:29:30Z")
I take it that you all haven’t seen [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373051/) then? Caves aren’t dangerous, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/70 "2009-11-30T22:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve read actual posts on the internet by the CAVERS THAT WERE THERE involved in the rescue. NONE of em has described the cave as even remotely dangerous. Then those cavers who were there are wrong. If this cave were not even remotely dangerous, then this guy wouldn’t have died in it. That’s pretty much what “not dangerous” means. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/71 "2009-11-30T22:45:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Then those cavers who were there are wrong. If this cave were not even remotely dangerous, then this guy wouldn’t have died in it. That’s pretty much what “not dangerous” means. So, everything anybody has ever died in/near/using/around is “dangerous”. Welcome to planet Earth my good friend. Really, Chronos, of all people here on the SDMB, I really expected better. Or even at the very least something more insightful. How many people have boiled themselves in Yellowstone? Is Yellowstone “dangerous” ? How many tourists have fallen to their deaths in the Grand Canyon? Is it dangerous ? How many people have been shot to death sitting in a cubicle? Or in a classroom? Are those dangerous? If you (all) want to talk stats and at what level something is "dangerous"or not, great. If your threshold for dangerous is someone once died there (perhaps even doing something stupid), then whats the difference between you and the antivacine extremists? Nothing IMO. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/72 "2009-11-30T22:47:37Z")
> [@Astroboy14](#): > > I take it that you all haven’t seen [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373051/) then? > > Caves aren’t dangerous, eh? Funny, I wish it were that exciting 🙂 Actually, depsite the total cheese of that movie, I like it on some levels. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/73 "2009-11-30T23:05:24Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, everything anybody has ever died in/near/using/around is “dangerous”. Welcome to planet Earth my good friend. > > Really, Chronos, of all people here on the SDMB, I really expected better. Or even at the very least something more insightful. > > How many people have boiled themselves in Yellowstone? Is Yellowstone “dangerous” ? > > How many tourists have fallen to their deaths in the Grand Canyon? Is it dangerous ? > > How many people have been shot to death sitting in a cubicle? Or in a classroom? > Are those dangerous? > > If you (all) want to talk stats and at what level something is "dangerous"or not, great. If your threshold for dangerous is someone once died there (perhaps even doing something stupid), then whats the difference between you and the antivacine extremists? Nothing IMO. > [@dictionary.com](#): > > \*\*dan⋅ger⋅ous  [deyn-jer-uhs, deynj-ruhs] > –adjective > > 1. full of danger or risk; causing danger; perilous; risky; hazardous; unsafe. > 2. able or likely to cause physical injury: a dangerous criminal.\*\* I don’t think that you will stop shouting to the heavens that it isn’t dangerous, but at least now we’ll all have a reference point to work from when considering your statements. Also, the slideshow you linked to seems to demonstrate, via pictures and narration, that Nutty Putty Cave is (or was) not a cakewalk. It’s not a huge open cave that Cha-ka could live in. Much of it is tight, twisting chimneys or crawls. Bob’s Push, where Mr. Jones became trapped, is quite a ways in. It would be expensive, dangerous, and IMO silly to think that it would be a good idea to only block that part of the cave. Why risk anyone else to do that, when the entrance can just be sealed? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/74 "2009-11-30T23:05:46Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > [QUOTE=Chronos] > > Then those cavers who were there are wrong. If this cave were not even remotely dangerous, then this guy wouldn’t have died in it. That’s pretty much what “not dangerous” means. So, everything anybody has ever died in/near/using/around is “dangerous”. Welcome to planet Earth my good friend. Really, Chronos, of all people here on the SDMB, I really expected better. Or even at the very least something more insightful. How many people have boiled themselves in Yellowstone? Is Yellowstone “dangerous” ? How many tourists have fallen to their deaths in the Grand Canyon? Is it dangerous ? How many people have been shot to death sitting in a cubicle? Or in a classroom? Are those dangerous? If you (all) want to talk stats and at what level something is "dangerous"or not, great. If your threshold for dangerous is someone once died there (perhaps even doing something stupid), then whats the difference between you and the antivacine extremists? Nothing IMO. [/quote] Um…yeah. Most of that stuff is dangerous. Not so much the cubicles or classrooms because they are incidental to the dangerous element (the crazy person with a firearm), but large boiling geysers and mile deep holes in the ground are dangerous. If you aren’t careful around those things, you can seriously hurt yourself. That’s what “dangerous” means - being able or likely to do harm. There is a thing called “risk analysis”. You assess what the possible dangers are for a particular activity, weight them against the benefits and determine the best way to mitigate those risks if you still feel like going ahead with the activity. You don’t approach a scalding hot geyser. You don’t fuck around the edge of a mile deep canyon. It’s disingenuous to say that spelunking doesn’t have an inherent bit of danger to it (otherwise no one would die doing it). You could crack your head, fall down a pit, get wedged in a crack, trapped by a cave in, caught in a flash flood that fills up the cave, impaled on a stalactite, killed by ancient boobytraps, lost and forced to spend the rest of your life eating bioluminescent fungus or be captured an eaten by C.H.U.D.s, Molemen or Morlocks. A smart person looks at the likelihood of these risks (from the relatively likely if you aren’t careful to the fantastically unlikely) and takes the appropriate precautions. In other words, you accept a certain element of risk simply by getting out of bed in the morning. > [@Astroboy14](#): > > I take it that you all haven’t seen [this](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373051/) then? > > Caves aren’t dangerous, eh? I think it was only dangerous to Brendon Frasier’s acting career. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/75 "2009-11-30T23:19:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There is a thing called “risk analysis”. You assess what the possible dangers are for a particular activity, weight them against the benefits and determine the best way to mitigate those risks if you still feel like going ahead with the activity. You don’t approach a scalding hot geyser. You don’t fuck around the edge of a mile deep canyon. Really, I did not know that. Of the population of cavers that actually cave that " I know" or have “known” that have died since I’ve “known” them, most of them have died of things having NOTHING to do with caving. If you wanna call that dangerous, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/76 "2009-11-30T23:34:06Z")
Wow. The amount of silly horseshit posted here by clueless non-cavers is staggering. No ecosystem? Seriously? What the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/77 "2009-11-30T23:36:14Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Wow. The amount of silly horseshit posted here by clueless non-cavers is staggering. No ecosystem? Seriously? What the fuck? Yeah, that was a gem. What else do you view as horseshit? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/78 "2009-11-30T23:50:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Actually it is landscape by definition, and it does have an ecosystem whether or not you value that. > [@Ogre](#): > > Wow. The amount of silly horseshit posted here by clueless non-cavers is staggering. No ecosystem? Seriously? What the fuck? > [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, that was a gem. What I said was: > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > and the cave has no ecosystem of any consequence. And I stand by that. The cave has no ecosystem of any consequence. I didn’t say “has no ecosystem at all”, as **mswas** and now **Ogre** have claimed. If y’all who have been misquoting me and mischaracterizing what I’ve said would like to debate what I _actually_ said, have at it. Otherwise, stfu. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/79 "2009-11-30T23:51:43Z")
Yeah, I like using subjective qualifiers to make my opinion seem more objective than it is too. ;p ‘of any consequence’ is such a loaded distinction. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/80 "2009-11-30T23:53:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, I like using subjective qualifiers to make my opinion seem more objective than it is too. ;p > > ‘of any consequence’ is such a loaded distinction. Kinda like “dangerous” when you get right down to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=5)