# Dead spelunker to be left in cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441 "2009-11-30T06:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/121 "2009-12-01T06:51:15Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > It’s a bummer that Nutty Putty cave is being closed. I heard rumors that the man got stuck in a tight spot called the Birth Canal by the locals. But that spot would be pretty easy to pull a guy out of, if you were willing to break ribs and dislocate shoulders. > > The one time I ventured into Nutty Putty (or any cave, for that matter) I found a hole in the ceiling just above the Birth Canal just big enough for a skinny guy to crawl through, which then came to a T at a horizontal tunnel about the size being described (10" high x 18" wide). If I was to name that spot, I’d call it the Fallopian Tubes. It seemed to go on forever, but after a while I realized there was no way in hell they’d ever get me out if I got stuck, and that my body was sealing off the air space so that I’d have an unknown but limited amount of oxygen. So I chickened out, and now the dead spelunker is not me. > > As far as the discussion about ecosystems, well I’m no expert but I saw no sign of life other than human. It is very dry and dusty. I saw no pools and no guano. You people are guano crazy. I can’t even read your post without wanting to walk outside into open space. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/122 "2009-12-01T07:00:52Z")
Reading several cave reports on Nutty Putty, I note a few things: 1. It’s already gated, albeit poorly. The gate is flawed, and is apparently easily compromised. 2. There is very little data on biological resources in the cave. However, there is high humidity in the cave (which on at least one occasion caused a datalogger to fail). High humidity means that there is water. If there’s water in there, there’s habitat for something. 3. Nutty Putty had become something of a “problem cave”. Amateurs have needed rescuing on several occasions, the entire area had become trashed with garbage and human waste, and the cave acquired a notorious smell of “sweaty gym socks” (ewww!) before a gate was added. Many cavers had put it on their “never to visit again” shortlist. Perhaps it’s better if Nutty Putty _were_ sealed off (maybe with a better gate). People do manage to mess stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/123 "2009-12-01T07:07:39Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Reading several cave reports on Nutty Putty, I note a few things: > > 1. It’s already gated, albeit poorly. The gate is flawed, and is apparently easily compromised. > > 2. There is very little data on biological resources in the cave. However, there is high humidity in the cave (which on at least one occasion caused a datalogger to fail). High humidity means that there is water. If there’s water in there, there’s habitat for something. > > 3. Nutty Putty had become something of a “problem cave”. Amateurs have needed rescuing on several occasions, the entire area had become trashed with garbage and human waste, and the cave acquired a notorious smell of “sweaty gym socks” (ewww!) before a gate was added. Many cavers had put it on their “never to visit again” shortlist. > > Perhaps it’s better if Nutty Putty _were_ sealed off (maybe with a better gate). People do manage to mess stuff up. So is it possible that The Powers That Be are using the caver’s unfortunate death as an excuse to seal off a problem cave as well? It just strikes me as a bit… morbid to simply leave the guy in there, at least in these circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/124 "2009-12-01T07:28:15Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Reading several cave reports on Nutty Putty, I note a few things: > > 1. It’s already gated, albeit poorly. The gate is flawed, and is apparently easily compromised. > > 2. There is very little data on biological resources in the cave. However, there is high humidity in the cave (which on at least one occasion caused a datalogger to fail). High humidity means that there is water. If there’s water in there, there’s habitat for something. > > 3. Nutty Putty had become something of a “problem cave”. Amateurs have needed rescuing on several occasions, the entire area had become trashed with garbage and human waste, and the cave acquired a notorious smell of “sweaty gym socks” (ewww!) before a gate was added. Many cavers had put it on their “never to visit again” shortlist. > > Perhaps it’s better if Nutty Putty _were_ sealed off (maybe with a better gate). People do manage to mess stuff up. When I was there, it was not gated. I was in the hole about 90 minutes and probably saw 25 people in groups of 2-5. I doubt any of them were what you’d call “cavers” or “rednecks.” Most of them (myself included) were college kids with cheap head-mounted flashlights. Someone had been kind enough to leave a rope at “The Big Slide” and no one had any other equipment. As far as the statement “High humidity means that there is water”, well yes I suppose that’s the definition. My non-expert guess is that the water source is human breath, human sweat, occasional human urine, and a single pile of human shit stinking up the area near the entrance. Looking at the .pdf map of the cave, the spot I was describing is “The Aorta Crawl.” It is inconceivable that someone would get stuck and die at Bob’s Push. That is a tight _spot_, not a tight tunnel. It’s in easy arm’s reach of fellow amateurs to pull you out. The Aorta Crawl or the Scout Eater are much more likely spots for a fatal accident. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/125 "2009-12-01T07:39:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > … > > ETA: Proof that I am right that caving is _always_ dangerous: look at the photo right below the “IMPORTANT DATES IN NUTTY PUTTY HISTORY” section. [cite](http://www.NuttyPuttyCave.com/history.html) > > Since I haven’t addressed the OP yet, I’ll just say that I haven’t been to Nutty Putty Cave, but I’ll trust the opinions of the people in charge that removing the body would have been unnecessarily dangerous for the people involved in the recovery effort. I’m kind of curious as to why the cave would need to be shut down permanently, but I see that there have been at least 6 stuck cavers who had to be rescued, and at least 6 deaths there in just the last 4 years. I also see that this isn’t the first time the cave has been closed, and that 2 other caves were permanently sealed in January 2009, so it seems likely that there is good reason to seal Nutty Putty as well. I have read and reread your cite, and I don’t see the “at least 6 deaths there in just the last 4 years.” I see people getting _stuck_ in Nutty Putty Cave and people drowning at _Y Mountain_ and a kid dying in a sand collapse at _Little Sahara_. But it looks like this is the first death “there”, meaning _Nutty Putty Cave._ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/126 "2009-12-01T07:49:32Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I have read and reread your cite, and I don’t see the “at least 6 deaths there in just the last 4 years.” I see people getting _stuck_ in Nutty Putty Cave and people drowning at _Y Mountain_ and a kid dying in a sand collapse at _Little Sahara_. But it looks like this is the first death “there”, meaning _Nutty Putty Cave._ Well I just went and re-read my cite, and you are correct; I didn’t realize that these were different caves, and not just parts of the Nutty Putty. I must have been confused by the heading “IMPORTANT DATES IN NUTTY PUTTY HISTORY” into thinking that the items listed would actually be about Nutty Putty Cave. Thanks for pointing out my error. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/127 "2009-12-01T12:32:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So is it that caves are danerous or that most people are idiots ? > > So, basically, there are lots of climbing and hiking and whatever rescues, but caving ones are so rare you can’t even find some numbers ? According to the NSS there were 8 incidents in 2009 so far. All required rescue. One was a death. This doesn’t include the death in question and these are all self reported it seems so I don’t know how accurate that is. There isn’t dedicated rescue teams for caving like the NPS maintains for climber and hiker rescues. In 2008 there were 17 incidents reported, two of which were deaths. Again, how accurate that is I don’t know but it is quite obvious that caving is not nearly as popular as climbing and mountaineering and it is quite dangerous by any normal standard. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/128 "2009-12-01T15:28:01Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > [http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/S...uttyPuttyCave/](http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/S...uttyPuttyCave/) All I have to say is FUCK THAT!:eek: Wedging myself though tiny cracks in the Earth in the dark with a hundred feet of rock above me is not my idea of fun. And what about those 4 idiots who drowned trying to swim through some underground river? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/129 "2009-12-01T15:31:40Z")
For anybody interested in more information about the rescue attempt, I found [this account](http://www.shaunroundy.com/2009/12/01/nutty-putty/) by a guy who was on the rescue team. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/130 "2009-12-01T15:50:30Z")
I just find it amusing that someone with the name of “Snowboarder Bo” seems to be the biggest advocate of sealing up a cave to prevent risk to explorers and unnecessary expense for rescues being passed on to the rest of us. Would he feel the same way if a ski slope was going to be shut down due to a snowboarding death or string of injuries? Unless my perception of the snowboarding crowd is completely off, I’ll bet there are a number of them out there boarding happily along without insurance plans. When they end up in the emergency room, don’t they pass on these costs to the rest of us, just as surely as a cave rescue does? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/131 "2009-12-01T16:08:39Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I just find it amusing that someone with the name of “Snowboarder Bo” seems to be the biggest advocate of sealing up a cave to prevent risk to explorers and unnecessary expense for rescues being passed on to the rest of us. > > Would he feel the same way if a ski slope was going to be shut down due to a snowboarding death or string of injuries? > Unless my perception of the snowboarding crowd is completely off, I’ll bet there are a number of them out there boarding happily along without insurance plans. When they end up in the emergency room, don’t they pass on these costs to the rest of us, just as surely as a cave rescue does? Just to be clear, I am not advocating for the sealing up of this cave. I simply understand the desire to do so, and have no problems with them doing it. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/132 "2009-12-01T16:21:39Z")
I don’t want to hijack this thread, but out of curiosity, would you have a problem with closing down a ski slope for the reasons I described above? If so, what is the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/133 "2009-12-01T16:43:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > All I have to say is FUCK THAT!:eek: > > Wedging myself though tiny cracks in the Earth in the dark with a hundred feet of rock above me is not my idea of fun. > > And what about those 4 idiots who drowned trying to swim through some underground river? When I was a teenager I read a juvenile novel, [The Weirdstone of Brisingamen](http://www.bookrags.com/The_Weirdstone_of_Brisingamen). It featured a pair of children trying to escape supernatural giants hunting them across the English countryside. At one point they are forced to evade capture by wiggling through abandoned hare tunnels that plunge deep into the earth. Strictly a one-way journey, U-turns and going in reverse were entirely impossible. Eventually, the leading child reaches the low point of the tunnel and discovers it is filled with water. Good book. And based on your post, it might be something you’d really enjoy. :^) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/134 "2009-12-01T18:21:27Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > When I was a teenager I read a juvenile novel, [The Weirdstone of Brisingamen](http://www.bookrags.com/The_Weirdstone_of_Brisingamen). It featured a pair of children trying to escape supernatural giants hunting them across the English countryside. > > At one point they are forced to evade capture by wiggling through abandoned hare tunnels that plunge deep into the earth. Strictly a one-way journey, U-turns and going in reverse were entirely impossible. > > Eventually, the leading child reaches the low point of the tunnel and discovers it is filled with water. > > Good book. And based on your post, it might be something you’d really enjoy. :^) After seeing those photos, I’ll take my chances with the giants. > [@misterW](#): > > I don’t want to hijack this thread, but out of curiosity, would you have a problem with closing down a ski slope for the reasons I described above? If so, what is the difference? You know, they do actually close down ski slopes when they feel conditions are unsafe or if that part of the mountain isn’t being maintained. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/135 "2009-12-01T20:21:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You know, they do actually close down ski slopes when they feel conditions are unsafe or if that part of the mountain isn’t being maintained. Right, but that’s not what happened with the cave. Conditions were as they have been and will be. It was human error that caused the death. I was wondering how Snowboarder Bo (in particular) or others who were fine with sealing the cave would react to, say, a ski slope being closed due to a snowboarder’s mishap. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/136 "2009-12-01T20:41:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I was wondering how Snowboarder Bo (in particular) or others who were fine with sealing the cave would react to, say, a ski slope being closed due to a snowboarder’s mishap. I guess the question is if the condition of the slope or the ability of the skiier is more of a deciding factor. Admitedly, I don’t know much about caving. So I’m wondering what sort of “skill” would have prevented this particular spelunker’s mishap? Also, caving to me seems a lot more inherently dangerous than skiing. Maybe not some spacious Mines of Moria cavern, but certainly climbing into anyplace where you might get yourself stuck under a million tons of rock. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/137 "2009-12-01T20:44:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I guess the question is if the condition of the slope or the ability of the skiier is more of a deciding factor. Admitedly, I don’t know much about caving. So I’m wondering what sort of “skill” would have prevented this particular spelunker’s mishap? > > Also, caving to me seems a lot more inherently dangerous than skiing. Maybe not some spacious Mines of Moria cavern, but certainly climbing into anyplace where you might get yourself stuck under a million tons of rock. I dunno, I think that a cave full of Orcs with a Balrog are probably a mite more dangerous than Nutty Putty, regardless of this man’s death. I remember seeing far more skeletons in Moria than the reports of Nutty Putty. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/138 "2009-12-01T21:04:52Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Right, but that’s not what happened with the cave. Conditions were as they have been and will be. It was human error that caused the death. > > I was wondering how Snowboarder Bo (in particular) or others who were fine with sealing the cave would react to, say, a ski slope being closed due to a snowboarder’s mishap. As someone already stated they do close slopes during dangerous conditions but that’s on private property. Of course you can back country ski if you have the skill and don’t mind the snow shoeing or CC Skiing involved and nobody can stop you. There’s a difference between risk to the general public and personal risked assumed by undertaking an activity you are experienced in. Only experienced people are going to back country ski, climb a rock face, go scuba diving, etc. Anyone can stumble into this cave. And with a body in it? The curiosity factor alone of a such a macabre scene warrants closing it. It’s just a hole in the ground with no environmental value. I see no issue with the state not wanting the responsibility of rescuing people crawling through the ground to see some dudes dead body. Many climbing areas over the years have been closed due to ecological impact and I have no problem with that. Where I lived in California a hot spring fed directly into a river everyone swam in. The water at the feed point was scalding hot. After a kid got burnt they put fence around that spot in the river so nobody else would burn themselves. I have no issue with this either. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/139 "2009-12-01T21:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s just a hole in the ground with no environmental value. Why do you people keep saying this (and keep saying it in such vague, infuriating language)? Do you have some data? Proof? Hell, even a complete map of the system? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/140 "2009-12-01T21:17:43Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Why do you people keep saying this (and keep saying it in such vague, infuriating language)? Do you have some data? Proof? Hell, even a complete map of the system? Hey it’s ecosystem is insignificant next to the ecosystem in Moria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=8)