# Dead spelunker to be left in cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441 "2009-11-30T06:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/161 "2009-12-01T22:30:20Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > perhaps endemic copepods or ostracods or pseudoscorpions, or cave crayfish, or crickets, or cave spiders, or beetles, or isopods, or cave fish, or…well, you get the idea. My point is, that if it’s truly an isolated ecosystem, you have to get back to plant life at some point, which doesn’t grow in caves. If it’s not a truly isolated ecosystem, the Nutty Putty mudskipper’s gonna be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/162 "2009-12-01T22:34:52Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No. I just noticed that what is going on here is that there are two positions, one where you are _assuming_ the existence of sufficiently unique and ‘notable’ wildlife that it’s worth keeping the hole open for it’s benefit, and one where you make no such assumption. And then I wondered why a person would leap to such an assumption. It’s not an unreasonable assumption, and I, apart from **mswas** , make no particular distinction between between “notable” wildlife, and whatever happens to live there. It’s a natural system in a fairly remote place, on private land. A few signs stating that you enter at your own risk, period, should be sufficient. I especially object to shutting the cave down for sentimental entombment reasons. Get his carcass out of there and bury him in a place set aside for such things. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/163 "2009-12-01T22:37:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No. I just noticed that what is going on here is that there are two positions, one where you are _assuming_ the existence of sufficiently unique and ‘notable’ wildlife that it’s worth keeping the hole open for it’s benefit, and one where you make no such assumption. And then I wondered why a person would leap to such an assumption. No one is assuming it has life. **Ogre** has pointed out that it has the preconditions to have life. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/164 "2009-12-01T22:37:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > My point is, that if it’s truly an isolated ecosystem, you have to get back to plant life at some point, which doesn’t grow in caves. If it’s not a truly isolated ecosystem, the Nutty Putty mudskipper’s gonna be just fine. What if the known entrance is the only point of contact with the outside world? Aside from that, what makes you think that changing conditions in any given microhabitat won’t affect its inhabitants? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/165 "2009-12-01T22:40:22Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > It’s not an unreasonable assumption, and I, apart from **mswas** , make no particular distinction between between “notable” wildlife, and whatever happens to live there. It’s a natural system in a fairly remote place, on private land. A few signs stating that you enter at your own risk, period, should be sufficient. I especially object to shutting the cave down for sentimental entombment reasons. Get his carcass out of there and bury him in a place set aside for such things. Is there any level of certainty to the notion that this one hole is the _only_ place this cave complex contacts the surface? I have a hard time believing that you could resonably expect to slaughter the cave’s entire population just by popping the cork in. Heck, given that it would keep out the human traffic and leave them a nice little source of nutrition as a bonus, it might even be net benefit for that mudfish. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/166 "2009-12-01T22:44:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Is there any level of certainty to the notion that this one hole is the _only_ place this cave complex contacts the surface? I have a hard time believing that you could resonably expect to slaughter the cave’s entire population just by popping the cork in. > > Heck, given that it would keep out the human traffic and leave them a nice little source of nutrition as a bonus, it might even be net benefit for that mudfish. Airflow is an important part of most caves’ ecology. ETA: In short, no one knows, so why make rash ecological decisions without sufficient information? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/167 "2009-12-01T22:50:03Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Airflow is an important part of most caves’ ecology. > > ETA: In short, no one knows, so why make rash ecological decisions without sufficient information? Are you asking me? Because I don’t give two farts about one cave’s mudfish. Not that I go out of my way to kill them, but it doesn’t take much of a reason to make me put them by the curb. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/168 "2009-12-01T22:52:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you asking me? Because I don’t give two farts about one cave’s mudfish. Not that I go out of my way to kill them, but it doesn’t take much of a reason to make me put them by the curb. Yep, that’s pretty much why you shouldn’t be making the decisions. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/169 "2009-12-01T22:57:11Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yep, that’s pretty much why you shouldn’t be making the decisions. Next question is, why should _you_ be making the decisions? From where I stand I have as much authority as you. And the guy who should be making the decisions is the guy, guys, or government agency that owns the hole. And if they’re as apathetic about the mudfish as I am, too bad for the mudfish. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/170 "2009-12-01T23:01:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Next question is, why should _you_ be making the decisions? From where I stand I have as much authority as you. And the guy who should be making the decisions is the guy, guys, or government agency that owns the hole. And if they’re as apathetic about the mudfish as I am, too bad for the mudfish. Because I have the distinction of having studied caves and cave habitats both in school, and professionally. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/171 "2009-12-01T23:10:14Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Because I have the distinction of having studied caves and cave habitats both in school, and professionally. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/172 "2009-12-01T23:18:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, actually, the cave has already induced one death this year. Closing the cave will prevent any more deaths. So, in conclusion, sealing the cave is medically necessary to prevent it from causing any more medical problems, such as death. A car crashed on a side road near me (the person missed a turn and hit a light-pole). So the side-road has already induced one death this year. Closing the road will prevent any more deaths. So, in conclusion, sealing the road is medically necessary to prevent it from causing any more medical problems, such as death. And the cave has been around–what? 50,000 years and has caused one (1) death. The road has been around since, say the 1970s or so and caused one (1) death. Clearly the road is the more urgent danger. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/173 "2009-12-01T23:22:38Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Because I have the distinction of having studied caves and cave habitats both in school, and professionally. So? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/174 "2009-12-02T00:00:48Z")
Here is what Real Cavers think of as a fun time. Links should be safe for work and kids with perhaps some mild profanity. I don’t know what the Russian ? ones are saying (it could be X rated in Russian for all I know) and there is a speedo in one. Nutty Putty Cave is likely a walk in the park by comparision. Water in the 50s [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/EFY5kfXJM0o/hqdefault.jpg "SINKING COVE 08 MOVIE 0001you tube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFY5kfXJM0o) Water and mud in the 40s [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/X6Dle_Kp7pI/hqdefault.jpg "Caving Fatique Pot Part 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Dle_Kp7pI) Lots of cold ass water, wind, and noise. Russian ? [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RylekhIrN94/hqdefault.jpg "water in narrow cave Zabludshih") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RylekhIrN94) Okay, this one is good for about a minute, then gets really strange/artsy. Russian ?, with manly speedo. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYpmtBQVbyU&NR=1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYpmtBQVbyU&NR=1) This one is just a typical moment for your average caver [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_2kJXLigtLw/hqdefault.jpg "Another Tight Crawl in Fitton Cave") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2kJXLigtLw) More typical stuff [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-rxeoy7on8) Then here is a segment from the worlds biggest outdoors dumbass from perhaps his most retarded episode ever as he tries to “survive” in northern alabama. Unfortunately he survives yet again despite himself. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/b8yfiYjkXKw/hqdefault.jpg "Man vs. Wild - Alabama - Cave Claustrophobia") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8yfiYjkXKw) ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/175 "2009-12-02T00:25:56Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > As someone already stated they do close slopes during dangerous conditions Again, this is not analogous – conditions in the cave were the same as they have been, and they are not planning to reopen it. I just think it is a shame when people are deprived of the opportunity to experience nature while doing something they love – all in a misguided effort to “protect” people who are not asking to be protected. > [@capeo](#): > > There’s a difference between risk to the general public and personal risked assumed by undertaking an activity you are experienced in. Only experienced people are going to back country ski, climb a rock face, go scuba diving, etc. I don’t really think there is nearly as much of a difference here as you seem to believe. In my limited experience rock climbing, I have seen numerous people who were clearly inexperienced and putting themselves at greater risk than they should. If every cliff where there had been a death or serious injury was closed to protect climbers, the sport itself would likely be in jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/176 "2009-12-02T02:09:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So? Well, unless you have similar experience, I’d venture to guess that I know quite a bit more about it than you do. Hi, **billfish**! Where are you? Where do you cave? I’m a TAG guy. I lived in Scottsboro, AL for several years. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/177 "2009-12-02T02:27:34Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Well, unless you have similar experience, I’d venture to guess that I know quite a bit more about it than you do. > > Hi, **billfish**! Where are you? Where do you cave? I’m a TAG guy. I lived in Scottsboro, AL for several years. Far away from caves these day ☹ But played plenty in TAG eons ago. Surprising I couldnt find any TAG videos showing very wet and technical and tight multidrop caves. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/178 "2009-12-02T02:30:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Far away from caves these day ☹ > > But played plenty in TAG eons ago. Surprising I couldnt find any TAG videos showing very wet and technical and tight multidrop caves. Yeah, that’s a bit surprising. Photos just don’t do a drop like Water Works justice. Yeek. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/179 "2009-12-02T02:35:49Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yeah, that’s a bit surprising. Photos just don’t do a drop like Water Works justice. Yeek. My search stills may really suck, so they might be out there. I was just thinking about that scary muddy ledge you crawl around to do Suprise Pit and the scary escalator you can do Incredible Pit. For the non cavers, those are places that if you slip/fall you you fall down either a 400 foot pit or a 600 foot pit. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441/180 "2009-12-02T03:11:31Z")
[This](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3076152178_e5079259b7.jpg?v=0) one? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dead-spelunker-to-be-left-in-cave/519441.md?page=10)