Yep. Almost looks nice and friendly when your not actually there in person. Looks like the pic wasnt taken in the small/narrow part of it. I remember thinking that if I could grab hold of rock with my puckering butt cheeks, that would be the place.
I must admit to being very confused at some of the arguments being used here. It seems that some are arguing that to save the (potential) ecosystem of the cave, we must keep it open, so that thousands of visitors, some of them rank amateurs, can continue to travel and move about the cave, touching every possible surface, so that some of these surfaces are actually polished smooth. This will aid the (theoretical) ecosystem.
It is further supposed that the only way to close the cave is by hermetically sealing it, so that the air flow will be impeded, thus harming the (theoretical) ecosystem.
Finally, detractors of this theory are being told that they must prove the non-existence of a theoretical ecosystem that might exist somewhere within the cave that has been visited by thousands of cavers, boy scouts, and other amateurs. I might well ask them to prove that poison gas does not exist in the cave somewhere that will kill the next person to enter.
Yeah, you’re confused.
You guys miss the point. Sealing the cave was all to make it the setup for a horror movie:
“Hey, you want to go out to that old cave?”
“Dude, I heard someone died in there. They sealed it up after the accident, and never recovered the body.”
“Are you saying you’re scared.”
“No! Let’s go!”
zombies destroy town
I’m always up to be un-confused! I understand that you probably know a ton more about caves that I.
How would sealing (by the use of bars or some-such that would keep airflow going) the cave, and eliminating thousands of visitors damage a theoretical ecosystem?
I would have thought it made more sense the other way - keep amateur visitors out of a delicate ecosystem in order to save it.
You could be right, although I question, for reasons already outlined, what wouldbe an effective strategy for sealing th cave which would be small enough to keep humans out, but large enough to allow the larger troglophiles (raccoons, rats, skunks, etc.) in and out, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, keeping in mind the cave’s new status as a tomb, keeping those same scavenging critters from dragging our unfortunate spelunker out piecemeal. i certainly wouldn’t mind seeing the cave get fewer human visitors, but I object to closing it off because of this dead guy. Fish him out, get the landowner to prohibit cavers on the property, and let whatever’s in there get on with whatever it does.
I"m totally with you on the stupidity of leaving the dead guy in there, as well as closing it because of said dead guy. I’ve looked at the pdf map, and I don’t see how this cave is particularly dangerous to trained people, and I’m sure someone could get the body out.
I’ve seen caves that have been “closed” by cementing bars into the rock at 12 inch intervals. I’ve seen others that have bars, plus a steel mesh door with padlocks. These are to keep out idiots who think they’re cavers, but are actually idiots who would get stuck, lost or injured. The key is held by a caving club or other knowledgeable person. I’ve been in other caves that only allow entrance with guides, to prevent damage to mineral formations by clueless idiots.
You’ve gotta admit though, that asking someone to prove the non-existence of an ecosystem is a bit of a stretch…
That cave is popular because its easy to find and everybody with an interest and a flashlight for 100 miles in every direction knows about it. Out of that population there are plenty of idiots with welding torches, truck winches, and even explosives.
If you REALLY try to restrict access with a gate, the gate WILL be breached, if not destroyed, on a regular basis. So, will just some bars to keep people out but allow airflow. So, its really either REALLY plug up that sucker with a couple truck loads of cement, or have a gate with workable access.
IMO you dont HAVE to prove the existence of an ecosystem. There is almost certainly one that is in the passages that are too small for humans. Cave ecosystems almost aways depend on a connection with the surface to bring in organic matter. The visiting cavers may have actually HELPED the ecosystem they could not reach by bringing in more organic material from the surface.
That ecosystem may or may not be “special”, but something is almost certainly down there somewhere. More importantly, in comparision to the surface of the earth, the total amount of cave worldwide that is available to serve as host for an ecosystem is exceeding small.
If you leave the body there, you almost have to plug that thing up like a coke bottle. And doing so would most very likely harm the ecosystem that is there.
The best option woulda been to get the body out of there. And it wouldnt surprise me that within a few years the family is wishing he wasnt left down there and are wanting it out.
A simpler way to look at it.
Nobody ever goes in an ungated/unplugged cave. Nobody goes caving but ecosystems are happy.
People go in caves. Ecosytem may or may not be significantly altered.
Caves are sealed shut. Nobody gets to cave and ecosystem is likely fucked.
The third option is by far the worst one in every measure of whats good and bad.
Except for crystal caves, which typically have tiny entrances, or are water-fed through pores in the rock. As a result, their natural state is not to breathe, and they have limited or no ecosystems attached to them. In such caves, however, the formations themselves are spectacular, and present one hell of an aesthetic argument for preservation. There’s a rather famous one that was first exposed during blasting for the I-24 corridor. It had never been exposed to the outside air during its entire development, and is now deteriorating because of changing humidity levels and air flow. The SCCI has tried to seal it, but it continues to get worse.
Cedar Ridge Crystal Cave ?
Yep, thats a damn nice one.
Yes, major human modification of an entrance size one way or another CAN have bad side effects.
That’s the one!
Bottom line seems to be:
Dead body left in Cave = not a good idea.
Agreed. The cave is remote enough that someone could blast open a gate without disturbing the neighbors.
The only way to prevent access is with a couple truckloads of cement. The entrance shaft leads straight down to a very wide room that is only 2 feet high at first. So if you simply pour enough cement into the hole, it will be extemely difficult for a frat party to get in.
Here is the latest from the rumor mill. The very entrance already smells pretty bad. They will blast closed the passage that leads to the body. They will also plug up the entrance with concrete with no consideration for maintaining some nominally normal air flow.
Forgive me for not reading all 4 pages right now, bu tI have a link to an excellent slide presentation with audio v/o that includes maps and photos of this cave, plus background on previous rescues etc. In case anyone is interested in first-person info on this topic.
http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/SavingNuttyPuttyCave/
There’s also a thread at the NSS website, it’s the Cave REscue thread. This thread is 7 pages long atm.
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&hilit=utah+death
Fuck. Although, looking at the maps to the area, especially that Silly Putty and Rabbit Trap are so close at hand, I suspect that they are physically connected (although who knows?), so perhaps sealing off one entrance won’t be entirely devastating.
Frankly, I cannot think of an activity I would enjoy less than cave exploring with the stinky dead body of a guy who died doing the same entombed in the same cave! :eek:
I’m sure he won’t stink for long.
When hunters drop a large animal they typically quarter it to ease removal. I wonder if that was ever considered. Personally, I’d prefer that be done to a relative of mine rather than leave him hanging upside down and at the mercy of a slew of blind insects in an abandoned cave.