# Deaf Culture and cochlear implants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926 "2000-10-23T01:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/21 "2000-10-25T03:43:03Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by eponymous \* \*\* > [@](#): > > If you’ve never had something to begin with, how is it a loss? And how does their deafness “significantly impair” their communication abilities and their ability to enjoy their surroundings, as well as being a genuine safety hazard? > \*\* \*\* eponymous, \*\* The world is STILL made up of sights, sounds, smells and things to be touched. If you’re not able to experience life with five senses, that is still a loss, whether you want to get stuck on semantics saying that it isn’t if you haven’t ever experienced it, wouldn’t NOT make it so. And it IS a safety hazard, or they wouldn’t invent things for the deaf, doorbells that have lights go off, smoke detectors that flash, etc. Unfortunately, there isn’t anything that helps the deaf to hear a car horn, if there is a vehicle bearing down on them. \*\* > [@](#): > > Wishing one’s children will be deaf is exactly equivalent to wishing they’ll be paralyzed, blind, or missing an arm.\*\* \*\* > [@](#): > > Uh, not exactly. To those who hear (and have had their hearing all their lives), they may consider deafness the equivalent of paralaysis, blindness, etc. To the deaf community, I would venture to say, they do not. \*\* While I can understand Phobos’ point, and even yours, that you would have something in common with your child, if you were deaf, and they were too. However, what I DON’T understand, is WISHING for it to be. The deaf are still impaired in dealing with the world, and I think the prejudice that the deaf young man in cutting himself off from his family BECAUSE they chose the implant shows the extent of his REAL handicap, NOT deafness, but a crippled heart. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/22 "2000-10-25T03:48:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by eponymous \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > We’re not talking about a simple cultural difference here, no matter how some might want to frame the discussion in those terms. > > Then how would one frame the the question? To the deaf community, it is a cultural difference.\*\* I don’t believe for one instant the majority of the “Deaf community” thinks this. Cochlear impants wouldn’t exist - nobody would want them - if they did. > [@](#): > > We’re talking about the loss of one of a human being’s most fundamental sensory devices, the loss of which significantly impairs communication abilities and opportunities for enjoyment of one’s surroundings, and is a genuine safety hazard. > [@](#): > > If you’ve never had something to begin with, how is it a loss? And how does their deafness “significantly impair” their communication abilities and their ability to enjoy their surroundings, as well as being a genuine safety hazard? The inability to converse with the better part of the human race using the single most common form of interpersonal communication, a form of communication we’re instinctively driven to use and for which our brains are physiologically hard-wired, strikes me as a major disadvantage. The inability to use a sense humans naturally and instinctively use as a way of negotiating their way through the world does strike me as a safety hazard, too. And if you can’t enjoy music, you ARE missing out on something. We are not talking here about a cultural difference like merely speaking a different language or having a different literary upbringing; we’re talking about the absence of one of the most fundamental structures of sensory input, which human beings have a basic part of their biological capability to interact with the world, a part that’s the product of millions of years of natural selection. It is a disability _by definition_ - it means that a deaf person is incapable of a basic physical function that the vast majority of humans naturally do. > [@](#): > > Wishing one’s children will be deaf is exactly equivalent to wishing they’ll be paralyzed, blind, or missing an arm. Uh, not exactly. To those who hear (and have had their hearing all their lives), they may consider deafness the equivalent of paralaysis, blindness, etc. To the deaf community, I would venture to say, they do not. [/QUOTE] I would suggest many deaf people disagree. And I think the others are wrong. I’m entitled to disagree with deaf people just as much as I am with hearing people. > [@](#): > > You’re equating deafness = disability = attribute that engenders cultural attitude toward said disability = hey! that person is NOT like me = not a good thing. Bull; that’s completely made up off your cuff. I’m saying deafness is a disability, period. Lots of people have disabilities; so what? Life’s like that. But WISHING a disability on someone - even your own child - is simply bizarre. The notion that accepting the fact that deafness IS a disability is somehow equivalent to saying “people not being like me is not a good thing” is a logical leap so wide Bob Beamon couldn’t make it. I’m not saying I don’t see where some deaf people are coming from on this, and I can understand **Phobos’s brother’s** feelings, but I think in the end they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/23 "2000-10-25T05:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > I don’t believe for one instant the majority of the “Deaf community” thinks this. Cochlear impants wouldn’t exist - nobody would want them - if they did. Ex-gay programs exist. > [@](#): > > The inability to converse with the better part of the human race using the single most common form of interpersonal communication, a form of communication we’re instinctively driven to use and for which our brains are physiologically hard-wired, strikes me as a major disadvantage. We’re not “instinctively driven” to learn a spoken language; we’re instinctively driven to learn a language, of which ASL is one. And this routine about the inability to converse could be used to say that speaking monolingual Basque is a disability. > [@](#): > > The inability to use a sense humans naturally and instinctively use as a way of negotiating their way through the world does strike me as a safety hazard, too. And if you can’t enjoy music, you ARE missing out on something. Oh. Since I’m not “naturally and instinctively” attracted to the opposite sex like most of the human race, why am I not disabled? And since I can’t enjoy sex with women, I must BE missing out on something. > [@](#): > > I’m entitled to disagree with deaf people just as much as I am with hearing people. Well, when you start disagreeing with Deaf people about their own lives, families, and self-concepts, you are probably going to be on the less legitimate side of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/24 "2000-10-25T06:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > > I don’t believe for one instant the majority of the “Deaf community” thinks this. Cochlear impants wouldn’t exist - nobody would want them - if they did. > > Ex-gay programs exist. \*\* Cochlear implants have been used in those who lost their hearing later in life and those who were born deaf. I saw this on a program about cybernetics on the Discovery channel a year or two ago. They also had a crude way of making the blind see but it was years away from being useful. > [@](#): > > The inability to converse with the better part of the human race using the single most common form of interpersonal communication, a form of communication we’re instinctively driven to use and for which our brains are physiologically hard-wired, strikes me as a major disadvantage. We’re not “instinctively driven” to learn a spoken language; we’re instinctively driven to learn a language, of which ASL is one. And this routine about the inability to converse could be used to say that speaking monolingual Basque is a disability. [/quote] \*\* Then I guess the ADA wouldn’t apply to deaf people. After all it isn’t a disability now is it? We could also take a look at the National Association of the Deaf. About Cochlear implants they say “The one thing the deaf and hard of hearing community agree on is that technology has the power to provide greater accessability, to level the playing field, and to maximize the quality of their lives.” To be fair they do mention the divisive stance about cochlear implants in the deaf and hard of hearing community. But it certainly sounds to me like they consider deafness to be a handicap. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The inability to use a sense humans naturally and instinctively use as a way of negotiating their way through the world does strike me as a safety hazard, too. And if you can’t enjoy music, you ARE missing out on something. > > Oh. Since I’m not “naturally and instinctively” attracted to the opposite sex like most of the human race, why am I not disabled? And since I can’t enjoy sex with women, I must BE missing out on something. \*\* For crying out loud what does being a homosexual have to do with being deaf? > [@](#): > > I’m entitled to disagree with deaf people just as much as I am with hearing people. Well, when you start disagreeing with Deaf people about their own lives, families, and self-concepts, you are probably going to be on the less legitimate side of the bargain. \*\* [/QUOTE] Except that not all deaf people are against cochlear implants. Some of them if given the opportunity would love to hear. Face it, one of these days there will no longer be a deaf and hard of hearing community. Marc ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/25 "2000-10-25T13:55:14Z")
Originally posted by MGibson > [@](#): > > Well most deaf people have a hard time communicating with those that can hear. If this weren’t the case there wouldn’t be a deaf community now would there? It’s a language/cultural barrier that can be overcome. > [@](#): > > There are occupations that the deaf are automatically barred from because their lack of hearing presents a hazard to themselves and to others. Soldiers, fire fighters, and law enforcement are just three I can think of off the top of my head. Point conceded. I guess my quibble is with the phrase “significantly impair”. The deaf are still able to function reasonably well in society (albiet with certain aids, like closed captioning and other technology). They may not be able to do certain jobs because of their hearing, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t do other things, or be productive members of society. > [@](#): > > **How is that any different from someone situated in a culture where they cannot understand or speak the language (e.g. - Mexican immigrant who cannot speak or understand English)?** > > You can learn to speak another language but you cannot learn to hear. Plus a Mexican in this country can still hear a car barreling down on him. Again, point conceded. But I still contend that deafness is not a significant impairmnet. The deaf person would have to be extra vigilant before crossing the street. As mentioned before, the deaf can function in society. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Uh, not exactly. To those who hear (and have had their hearing all their lives), they may consider deafness the equivalent of paralaysis, blindness, etc. To the deaf community, I would venture to say, they do not.\*\* > > Which explains why they pushed for closed caption. And how is this any different from someone who pushes for bilungual education in schools, or demanding that government documents/reports are published in Spanish, French, etc.? What is it about closed captioning that you object to? > [@](#): > > \*\* > You’re equating deafness = disability = attribute that engenders cultural attitude toward said disability = hey! that person is NOT like me = not a good thing. While many in the deaf community equate deafness = nondisability = cultural attribute that deafness engenders = hey! another person just like me = good thing.\*\* > > It is a disability and no amount of word games will change that. Again, a disability to you or I. But I will restate my previous belief that many, if not most, deaf people do not feel that their deafness is a disability. > [@](#): > > Being deaf is not a good thing. Would you want to be deaf? \*\* Do you realize you just made an incredibly insulting statement? Substitute “African-American” for deaf and you’ll understand why a deaf person would consider it as such. Would I want to be deaf - no. But that’s coming from the perspective of someone who hears. It would make my life less enjoyable. I wouldn’t be able to hear all the wonderful sounds that life has to offer. Now ask someone who’s deaf if they would want to hear. Some would say yes, but many others would not. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/26 "2000-10-25T14:50:15Z")
Just want to make a point that I haven’t seen yet. There is a difference between **deaf** and **Deaf**.A deaf person is someone who cannot hear.A member of the Deaf community is one who considers him/herself part of Deaf culture. The “deaf community” ( people who just happen not to hear, and don’t necessarily have anything else in common) and the “Deaf community” probably have different ideas about a lot of things. While deaf people may consider difficulty in communicating with hearing people a disability, the Deaf very likely see it similarly to an English-only speaker’s inability to communicate with a Spanish-only speaker - may be a disabilty in a specific circumstance (when it’s necessary to speak to a particular person), but not likely to have a big affect on day to day life. I don’t think there is a separate culture for any other disabilty, but deafness is different from other disabilities in a couple of ways. First of all, except for the blind,only the deaf have schools for a specific disability. There may be schools where all the students are disabled in some way, but not schools for paraplegics, different schools for quadriplegics, etc.Besides that, only the deaf use a different language ( and ASL is a different language-grammar, idioms etc. ASL is not English signed word for word) As for why someone wouldn’t jump at the chance to gain an sense that they don’t have, I can only give my own example. I have a lazy eye. Although I have vision in it, they don’t focus together , causing me to see out of only one eye at a time. This causes at least poor depth perception.If I could have surgery tomorrow to fix it, I wouldn’t. It would be like living in a new world. On the other hand, if I were to lose my hearing, I would probably do anything to regain it because **that** that would be like living in a new world. Would I wish my children had the same problem? No, but I didn’t go to a school where all the students had lazy eye,or speak a language usually only spoken by those with lazy eye,or have a life where all my friends have lazy eye and share a common culture ( from education to humor) not shared by those who don’t have lazy eye and I wouldn’t have to worry either that my non-lazy eye children would be rejected by that culture or would reject that culture ( and possibly me} themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/27 "2000-10-25T15:20:04Z")
Cochlear implants, let’s not forget, are perfect hearing machines. They do magnify what’s called inductive hearing, but they have much the same type of limitations as - for example - a speech synthesizer has compared to true speech. Plus, as opponents of the implants point out, they destroy whatever residual hearing a person had, so they are now totally dependent on the implant for any sound they get. People may have gotten the idea from my first post that I sided with the parent who didn’t want the implants for his child. I don’t. But many of my fellow posters here simply can’t or won’t see the argument that to some people, Deaf is a culture, and that they demand that culture be accepted, and not try to be assimilated into another culture by the means of a device in one’s head. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/28 "2000-10-25T15:25:34Z")
Cochlear implants, let’s not forget, are not perfect hearing machines. They do magnify what’s called inductive hearing, but they have much the same type of limitations as - for example - a speech synthesizer has compared to true speech. Plus, as opponents of the implants point out, they destroy whatever residual hearing a person had, so they are now totally dependent on the implant for any sound they get. People may have gotten the idea from my first post that I sided with the parent who didn’t want the implants for his child. I don’t. But many of my fellow posters here simply can’t or won’t see the argument that to some people, Deaf is a culture, and that they demand that culture be accepted, and not try to be assimilated into another culture by the means of a device in one’s head. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/29 "2000-10-25T16:01:11Z")
\*Originally posted by Anti Pro \* > [@](#): > > The world is STILL made up of sights, sounds, smells and things to be touched. If you’re not able to experience life with five senses, that is still a loss, whether you want to get stuck on semantics saying that it isn’t if you haven’t ever experienced it, wouldn’t NOT make it so. It IS a loss from the perspective of someone having all five senses. It’s not necessarily a matter of semantics - it’s a matter of understanding it from a deaf person’s perspective. How would you explain to someone who is deaf that their inability to hear is a loss without sounding condescending? > [@](#): > > And it IS a safety hazard, or they wouldn’t invent things for the deaf, doorbells that have lights go off, smoke detectors that flash, etc. Unfortunately, there isn’t anything that helps the deaf to hear a car horn, if there is a vehicle bearing down on them. Point taken. See reply to MGibson. > [@](#): > > …and I think the prejudice that the deaf young man in cutting himself off from his family BECAUSE they chose the implant shows the extent of his REAL handicap, NOT deafness, but a crippled heart. That may be true, but I could understand why the deaf young man would react the way did (not agreeing with his actions, just understanding them from his perspective). ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/30 "2000-10-25T16:14:14Z")
NOT perfect. NOT perfect. NOT perfect hearing machines. I thought I got that fixed before I posted. Sorry about the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/31 "2000-10-25T16:32:23Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re equating deafness = disability = attribute that engenders cultural attitude toward said disability = hey! that person is NOT like me = not a good thing. > [@](#): > > Bull; that’s completely made up off your cuff. I’m saying deafness is a disability, period. Lots of people have disabilities; so what? Life’s like that. Ok, so it was made up off my cuff. I can agree with you that deafness is a disability. What I’m trying for you to understand that many (if not most) deaf people DO NOT consider their deafness a disability. They may be wrong, but that’s not going to make them accept the fact that their deafness is a disability. > [@](#): > > But WISHING a disability on someone - even your own child - is simply bizarre. It’s only bizarre from the perspective of those who can hear. > [@](#): > > The notion that accepting the fact that deafness IS a disability is somehow equivalent to saying “people not being like me is not a good thing” is a logical leap so wide Bob Beamon couldn’t make it. I agree, and I apologize for implying as such. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/32 "2000-10-25T16:46:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > Just want to make a point that I haven’t seen yet. There is a difference between **deaf** and **Deaf**.A deaf person is someone who cannot hear.A member of the Deaf community is one who considers him/herself part of Deaf culture. The “deaf community” ( people who just happen not to hear, and don’t necessarily have anything else in common) and the “Deaf community” probably have different ideas about a lot of things. While deaf people may consider difficulty in communicating with hearing people a disability, the Deaf very likely see it similarly to an English-only speaker’s inability to communicate with a Spanish-only speaker - may be a disabilty in a specific circumstance (when it’s necessary to speak to a particular person), but not likely to have a big affect on day to day life. > > I don’t think there is a separate culture for any other disabilty, but deafness is different from other disabilities in a couple of ways. First of all, except for the blind,only the deaf have schools for a specific disability. There may be schools where all the students are disabled in some way, but not schools for paraplegics, different schools for quadriplegics, etc.Besides that, only the deaf use a different language ( and ASL is a different language-grammar, idioms etc. ASL is not English signed word for word). Doreen, nice summary/clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/33 "2000-10-25T18:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Point conceded. I guess my quibble is with the phrase “significantly impair”. The deaf are still able to function reasonably well in society (albiet with certain aids, like closed captioning and other technology). They may not be able to do certain jobs because of their hearing, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t do other things, or be productive members of society. \*\* No matter how you look at it they’re still impaired. Great, people with disabilites can lead fruitful lives. I’m not going to dispute that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Again, point conceded. But I still contend that deafness is not a significant impairmnet. The deaf person would have to be extra vigilant before crossing the street. As mentioned before, the deaf can function in society. \*\* Well that’s peachy. Here’s a few other disabilites we can take off the list, blindness, hemophilia, mute, and paraplegia. After all if handled right none of these conditions should severly inhibite someones ability to live a fruitful life. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is a disability and no amount of word games will change that. Again, a disability to you or I. But I will restate my previous belief that many, if not most, deaf people do not feel that their deafness is a disability. [/quote] \*\* What they feel doesn’t change that it is a disability. > [@](#): > > Being deaf is not a good thing. Would you want to be deaf? \*\* Do you realize you just made an incredibly insulting statement? Substitute “African-American” for deaf and you’ll understand why a deaf person would consider it as such. [/quote] \*\* Why not stop making such lame comparisons? Why not replaced deaf with “crippled.” > [@](#): > > \*\* > Would I want to be deaf - no. But that’s coming from the perspective of someone who hears. It would make my life less enjoyable. I wouldn’t be able to hear all the wonderful sounds that life has to offer. \*\* So if you were able to hear once then that makes being deaf bad? But if you were born deaf then being deaf isn’t a bad thing. Wow, that makes it really easy to follow. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Now ask someone who’s deaf if they would want to hear. Some would say yes, but many others would not. > \*\* Apparantly enough say yes. Marc ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/34 "2000-10-25T20:59:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by RickJay \* > > I don’t believe for one instant the majority of the “Deaf community” thinks this. Cochlear impants wouldn’t exist - nobody would want them - if they did._\* > > Ex-gay programs exist. We’re not talking about “Ex-gay programs.” You may throw the red herring back into the water now. > [@](#): > > **The inability to converse with the better part of the human race using the single most common form of interpersonal communication, a form of communication we’re instinctively driven to use and for which our brains are physiologically hard-wired, strikes me as a major disadvantage.** > [@](#): > > We’re not “instinctively driven” to learn a spoken language; No, Matt, that’s just compeletely incorrect. Verbal communication is instinctive. > [@](#): > > **The inability to use a sense humans naturally and instinctively use as a way of negotiating their way through the world does strike me as a safety hazard, too. And if you can’t enjoy music, you ARE missing out on something.** > > Oh. Since I’m not “naturally and instinctively” attracted to the opposite sex like most of the human race, why am I not disabled? What does being gay make you physically incapable of doing? Nothing. Your question’s a non sequitur. You’re picking and choosing your quotes here to deliberately argue a point I never made. > [@](#): > > And since I can’t enjoy sex with women, I must BE missing out on something. If you would re-read the post, I never suggested (and nor has anyone else) that “missing out on something” is the sole criteria by which we can asses someone to have a disability. Let me turn this around and stop beating around the bush; is it your honest belief that being deaf isn’t a disability? > [@](#): > > Well, when you start disagreeing with Deaf people about their own lives, families, and self-concepts, you are probably going to be on the less legitimate side of the bargain. If my side of the table is the wrong one, tell me why. It shouldn’t be hard. Explain to me why what seems to very obviously be a disability is not a disability. I maintain my position; wishing your child will be deaf is no different from wishing they will be blind or paralyzed. People who are blind or paralyzed have their own cultures, too (I know this is true for the paralyzed, anyway; I’m just assuming it of the blind.) My little cousin’s paralyzed; he’ll never walk. He leads a full life, is a VERY successful athlete who has a damned good shot at the Olympics, is a good student and a great kid; should he wish paralysis on his children? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/35 "2000-10-25T21:40:50Z")
There is a new documentary on the subject, called **Sound and Fury**. Here’s the link: [http://us.imdb.com/Details?0240912](http://us.imdb.com/Details?0240912) I know little about the film beyond what the User Comments say on the site, but the description and debate issues are both interesting (though the “Borg” analogy seems pretty far-fetched). For those living in the SF Bay Area, the film is playing at the Roxie until November 1 [http://www.roxie.com/index.html](http://www.roxie.com/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/36 "2000-10-25T23:04:05Z")
There was a Law & Order episode on this topic. Some deaf person was killed who was looking into the implants, and one of the suspects was another deaf person who was against them. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/37 "2000-10-26T00:18:19Z")
_Originally posted by MGibson_ \*\* > [@](#): > > Well that’s peachy. Here’s a few other disabilites we can take off the list, blindness, hemophilia, mute, and paraplegia. After all if handled right none of these conditions should severly inhibite someones ability to live a fruitful life. \*\* After rereading what I wrote, I guess my point does sound peachy. But I guess I’m try to look at it or understand deafness from the perspective of the deaf community/culture. That is, _within the context of their community/culture_, then I (or rather they) would not view deafness as a disability nor a significant impairment. However, from a broader, societal perspective (in which the deaf community is imbedded in), then deafness could be (and is) viewed as a disability and does significantly impair there ability to function in the wider society. \*\* > [@](#): > > What they feel doesn’t change that it is a disability. \*\* In the larger societal context - yes. To you and I, who function in the wider societal context, yes. But to the deaf, as they function _within the deaf community/culture,_ then no. \*\* > [@](#): > > Do you realize you just made an incredibly insulting statement? Substitute “African-American” for deaf and you’ll understand why a deaf person would consider it as such. \*\* \*\* > [@](#): > > Why not stop making such lame comparisons? Why not replaced deaf with “crippled.” \*\* It’s not a lame comparison - if taken _in the context of the deaf community_. I guess I’m looking at deafness and the community/culture it engenders from a cultural perspective, rather than the wider, societal perspective _of which the deaf community/culture is embedded_. \*\* > [@](#): > > So if you were able to hear once then that makes being deaf bad? But if you were born deaf then being deaf isn’t a bad thing. Wow, that makes it really easy to follow. \*\* It’s not hard to understand. By my becoming deaf, I’ve LOST something. I would have to adjust to the fact that I cannot hear and may never hear again. I’d be upset, angry, whatever. From my perspective, it WOULD be a bad thing. Now, granted, I’m attaching a subjective judgement/feeling to my now state of deafness. In time, I may adjust to the point that being deaf isn’t so bad. But my initial reaction would probably be that becoming deaf is not a good thing. Now, look at it from the perspective of someone who is born deaf and becomes a part of the deaf community/culture. That person can’t hear and doesn’t know what it’s like to hear. They haven’t lost anything. Sure, from a wider, societal perspective, their deafness is a bad thing - to us. But from a deaf community/culture perspective, it isn’t a bad thing. That person can fit in and be a member of the deaf community/culture. They find a place where they belong. Now, said person gets cochlear implants. That person can now hear. Good thing or bad thing? It depends - the person may view hearing as a bad thing because now they’ve LOST something. That something being the identity one had by being part of a culture/community in which they formally belonged. Again, the person is making a subjective judgement/feeling, and in time may find that hearing isn’t so bad. > [@](#): > > **Now ask someone who’s deaf if they would want to hear. Some would say yes, but many others would not.** \*\* > [@](#): > > Apparantly enough say yes. \*\* And the reason for some in the deaf community/culture to react negatively (to us, irrationally) to those who do. Granted, I may not necessarily agree with alot of the acrimony from the deaf community heaped at those who chose the implants. But at least I’m trying to understand the issue as a “clash of cultures,” rather than looking at deafness solely from the broader, societal perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/38 "2000-10-26T02:39:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > After rereading what I wrote, I guess my point does sound peachy. But I guess I’m try to look at it or understand deafness from the perspective of the deaf community/culture. That is, _within the context of their community/culture_, then I (or rather they) would not view deafness as a disability nor a significant impairment. \*\* I guess when everyone else is deaf then it really isn’t a disability. > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, from a broader, societal perspective (in which the deaf community is imbedded in), then deafness could be (and is) viewed as a disability and does significantly impair there ability to function in the wider society. \*\* Bingo. That’s all I’m saying. And I stand by my statement that being deaf is not a good thing. Just like being blind isn’t a good thing, mental retardation isn’t a good thing, and parapalegia isn’t so hot. > [@](#): > > \*\* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > What they feel doesn’t change that it is a disability. > > \*\* > > In the larger societal context - yes. To you and I, who function in the wider societal context, yes. But to the deaf, as they function _within the deaf community/culture,_ then no. \*\* Well they don’t live in a vacuum do they? > [@](#): > > \*\* > It’s not a lame comparison - if taken _in the context of the deaf community_. I guess I’m looking at deafness and the community/culture it engenders from a cultural perspective, rather than the wider, societal perspective _of which the deaf community/culture is embedded_. \*\* Well guess what. That’s a culture/community that will be probably be wiped out within the century. We’ll have the technology to repair any damage or birth defect that causes deafness. Cultures shouldn’t be kept simply for the sake of being kept. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Now, look at it from the perspective of someone who is born deaf and becomes a part of the deaf community/culture. That person can’t hear and doesn’t know what it’s like to hear. They haven’t lost anything. \*\* That’s like saying if I never had a father I didn’t miss anything. Let’s see, growing up they often have a difficult time taking part in mainstream society. Nah, they ain’t missing a darn thing. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Sure, from a wider, societal perspective, their deafness is a bad thing - to us. But from a deaf community/culture perspective, it isn’t a bad thing. That person can fit in and be a member of the deaf community/culture. They find a place where they belong. \*\* For some of them it isn’t a bad thing. Some people born deaf want cochlear implants. And I must point out that the deaf do not live in a vacuum. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And the reason for some in the deaf community/culture to react negatively (to us, irrationally) to those who do. Granted, I may not necessarily agree with alot of the acrimony from the deaf community heaped at those who chose the implants. But at least I’m trying to understand the issue as a “clash of cultures,” rather than looking at deafness solely from the broader, societal perspective. > > \*\* Well kudos to you for trying to walk a mile in their shoes. There are valid reasons to be concerned about cochlear implants. Surgery, even routine, has its risks, some may experience inner ear problems such as lack of balance, and quite frankly maybe the ability to hear isn’t worth the trouble of the implants. The fear of a culture being wiped out because the disability will no longer exist is a sorry reason to be concerned. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/39 "2000-10-26T02:56:33Z")
Here’s the problem with cochlear implants. The brain must have sound input during the critical first years in order to be able to process sound. If you grew up with no hearing, a cochlear implant won’t help you much. But cochlear implants also destroy your natural hearing, and almost all deaf people have some residual hearing. So cochlear implants must be done on kids so their brains can get the stimulus. But the kids cannot consent, the parents must decide. And 99% of deaf kids have hearing parents. So we have hearing parents who don’t understand deafness making life and death decisions for deaf kids that deaf adults might not make. The critical thing that people aren’t understanding is that deafness means that you will never be fully fluent in spoken english, no matter how well you speech read. So the deaf use sign or whatever variety. This creates a language community. Imagine if you lived with people who used supersonic clicks to communicate, like dolphins. No matter how much you tried, you’d never fully be part of that society. But what if there were other people like you who could speak the way you did? Those people would instantly form your community, you would spend your time among them. Not that you would have no contact with the dolphin-people, it’s just that you could never fully relax with them since communication would always be a challenge. That is what the Deaf man was talking about when he said he hoped his children would be deaf. What if there was an operation that allowed your children to communiate via supersonic whistles? It might enhance their lives tremendously, but it would isolate you from them. They would be part of the supersonic community. No matter how much you loved them, you would never be as close to them as you would be to children who spoke the same way you do. Deaf people are incredibly protective about ASL because it is the one thing they have created for themselves, it belongs to them. But there have been many misguided attempts by educators of the deaf to destroy it. The usual rational is that signing prevents mainstreaming, that it takes away valuable time from speech reading and oral training. But of course this is false…it is like claiming that kids shouldn’t be allowed to speak when they are learning to read, since speaking will interfere with their reading. Before you judge Deaf adults attitudes toward deafness and implants, perhaps you should try to understand how someone could come to the position that they would rather have a deaf child than a hearing child. Even though YOU wouldn’t have the same hope, can’t you see how someone else who has had totally different life experiences could have different ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926/40 "2000-10-26T03:30:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > So cochlear implants must be done on kids so their brains can get the stimulus. But the kids cannot consent, the parents must decide. And 99% of deaf kids have hearing parents. So we have hearing parents who don’t understand deafness making life and death decisions for deaf kids that deaf adults might not make. \*\* Correct me if I’m mistaken but aren’t parents responsible for life and death decisions regarding their children? On the flip side I could say that deaf parents don’t understand hearing and are making decisions a deaf adult might wish they had made. > [@](#): > > \*\* > That is what the Deaf man was talking about when he said he hoped his children would be deaf. What if there was an operation that allowed your children to communiate via supersonic whistles? \*\* I once had deaf neighbors with 4 kids and all but the oldest child was deaf. She had no problem communicating with her parents or those of us who could hear. You don’t have to be deaf to sign like an expert. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Before you judge Deaf adults attitudes toward deafness and implants, perhaps you should try to understand how someone could come to the position that they would rather have a deaf child than a hearing child. Even though YOU wouldn’t have the same hope, can’t you see how someone else who has had totally different life experiences could have different ideas? > \*\* All sorts of different people have all sorts of ideas that aren’t the same as mine. That doesn’t mean I have to think their ideas are ok. As I pointed out a person who isn’t deaf can learn to sign like an expert. The child of a deaf couple can fully take part in their lives because the odds are great that they’ll be able to sign. If parents want their kids to interact with the deaf community only I find that terrible. Sounds more like an awful cult then a pleasant community. Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deaf-culture-and-cochlear-implants/37926.md?page=3)