# Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2006, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313 "2006-07-13T09:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/21 "2006-07-13T16:12:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t think we’re talking about what Catholic confession is actually supposed to mean in spirit but how it’s psychologically misused by some people to make themselves feel less guility. [/QUOTE] So, cite some evidence that this is what Catholic people do. > [@](#): > > You’d be surprised how many people think that being born-again absolves them of all past guilt or accountability. Many of them also think of getting saved as being something like an oil change – it’s something they can do periodically and start over with a clean slate. They think that as long as they keep asking Jesus for forgiveness, they’ll keep getting forgiven. As a result, they never really feel like they’re actions will have any consequences. They can just pray it away later. …and give me a cite for this as well, while you are at it. > [@](#): > > I know this isn’t how it’s SUPPOSED to work but that doesn’t mean that lots of people don’t use this kind of thinking as a way to relieve themselves of moral accountability. > > Most liberals are religious, and Dean wasn’t really talking about religion anyway. He was talking about the way a certain kind of personality USES religion. Maybe, but just believing that you are right about something can serve the same purpose…you don’t have to have any religion attached to it. > [@](#): > > As to how liberals justify committing the same immoral acts – I think you’ll have to be specific about what kind of repeated immoral acts you’re talking about. There are some things which religious conservatives would call “immoral” that liberals would not. It could be anything. Is there no immoral act you have committed more than once? I will let you use your own definition of immoral. > [@](#): > > I’m also not sure that liberals are so quick to absolve themselves. As a non-religious liberal, I would say that when I do something that I feel is “immoral”, I accept psychological responsibility for it and try not to repeat it. If I can make amends to a person I’ve harmed (and causing unnecessary harm to other people is the only thing I consider to be immoral), I will attempt to do so but I won’t ask them to forgive me and I never think my guilt has gone away. I’m not sure conservatives are so quick to absolve themselves, either. Some maybe are, some maybe aren’t…just like liberals ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/22 "2006-07-13T16:16:39Z")
For liberal authoritarians - I think many British monarchs might fit, particularly Elizabeth I. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/23 "2006-07-13T16:19:37Z")
[QUOTE=SuaSponte] ::Blink:: LBJ’s record is by far the most liberal of any President we have ever had. Yes, even more than FDR’s (most of FDR’s more liberal policies were intended, and were in fact, temporary measures to deal with the Depression. With the obvious exceptions of SSA, TVA, and REA, very few survived). Sua [/QUOTE] Again, you’re talking about economic policies, I’m talking about social ones. How do you think LBJ would have felt about gay marriage? What were his positions on abortion, gun control and the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/24 "2006-07-13T16:21:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] A cite for what? The local ordinance, or the fact that my town is overwhelmingly liberal? [/QUOTE] Upon thinking about this, I guess I shouldn’t have mentioned my local ordinance. I would prefer not to give the cite, because I have a general policy of not giving out my exact location on the internet. So, I am sorry that I can’t back it up. I should amend my statement, anyway…it is a handgun ban, not “all guns,” which is what I think I said. I don’t think that anyone could argue that gun bans are usually the work of lefties. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/25 "2006-07-13T16:24:19Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] A cite for what? The local ordinance, or the fact that my town is overwhelmingly liberal? [/QUOTE] The ordinance. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/26 "2006-07-13T16:25:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Upon thinking about this, I guess I shouldn’t have mentioned my local ordinance. I would prefer not to give the cite, because I have a general policy of not giving out my exact location on the internet. So, I am sorry that I can’t back it up. I should amend my statement, anyway…it is a handgun ban, not “all guns,” which is what I think I said. I don’t think that anyone could argue that gun bans are usually the work of lefties. [/QUOTE] A handgun ban is not authoritarian. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/27 "2006-07-13T16:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A handgun ban is not authoritarian. [/QUOTE] In your opinion, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/28 "2006-07-13T16:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, they outlawed forcing unbelievers to pay for it. That’s typical conservative rhetoric; unless _you_ pay _them_ to propagandize _you_, _they_ are the ones being oppressed. [/QUOTE] In Russia, Nativity propagandize _you_! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/29 "2006-07-13T17:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] So, cite some evidence that this is what Catholic people do. [/quote] I didn’t say it’s what Catholic people do, I said it’s how SOME people USE Catholicism. My cite is my own life experience. I was raised in the RCC and went to Catholic schools. My wife and kids are Catholic. I’ve been around the Church and Catholic people all my lives. I’ve seen and heard what I’m talking about with my own eyes and ears. There are people who think if they say a few Hail Mary’s that everything is good. Do you deny this? > [@](#): > > …and give me a cite for this as well, while you are at it. Go to Christian Forums some time, or read a Chick Tract. There have been fundies on this very board who have said things like all unconverted Jews go to Hell but Ted Bundy is going to heaven because he got Jesus. A lot of conservative evangelicals think that accepting Jesus is a psychological get-out-of-jail-free card. Not all of them think this way but an awful lot of them do, including some prominent leaders. > [@](#): > > Maybe, but just believing that you are right about something can serve the same purpose…you don’t have to have any religion attached to it. If you don’t think you did anything wrong then you don’t NEED the purpose. We’re talking about how some people use religion to relieve psychic guilt. If you don’t HAVE any psychic guilt then it’s a moot point. > [@](#): > > It could be anything. Is there no immoral act you have committed more than once? I will let you use your own definition of immoral. Sure, but like I said, I make no attempt to absolve myself. I just accept that I can be an asshole and try to do better in the future. Since I make no attempt to relieve myself of psychic guilt (making amends to people I’ve harmed is about repairing THEIR damage, not my own) then I’m less likely to repeat the same errors. I still feel guilty about the last time and I don’t believe I can make anything ok by chanting magic words to a sky god…nor would I want to do that even if I believed it were possible. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure conservatives are so quick to absolve themselves, either. Some maybe are, some maybe aren’t…just like liberals Well the OP was talking about AUTHORITARIAN conservatives and I do think that authoritarians are more likely to use religion as a way to justify their actions as well as to twist it in a manner which will soothe whatever conscience they may have. These kinds of people are almost always social conservatives. Social conservatism is almost _defined_ by lack of empathy, lack of tolerance and lack of self-reflection. I don’t think that social liberals often become tribalistic, bigoted and controlling enough to engage in the same kind of self-righteous, self-serving religiosity that Bush and his ilk are so known for. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/30 "2006-07-13T17:30:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Can somebody name a liberal authoritarian? I can’t. (FYI, I don’t consider Communist dictators to be liberal [/QUOTE] No true Scotsman will dispute you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/31 "2006-07-13T17:31:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Can somebody name a liberal authoritarian? I can’t. [/QUOTE] James Carville would score very high on such a scale. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/32 "2006-07-13T17:32:29Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] James Carville would score very high on such a scale. [/QUOTE] What’s authoritarian about Carville? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/33 "2006-07-13T18:46:00Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] James Carville would score very high on such a scale. [/QUOTE] Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/34 "2006-07-13T18:58:20Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Can somebody name a liberal authoritarian? I can’t. (FYI, I don’t consider Communist dictators to be liberal [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A handgun ban is not authoritarian. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Social conservatism is almost _defined_ by lack of empathy, lack of tolerance and lack of self-reflection. [/QUOTE] Wow – a trifecta (defining away counterexamples as “not liberal”, defining away counterexamples as “not authoritarian”, and incorporating the alleged traits into the definition of the group under discussion) of True Scotsman fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/35 "2006-07-13T19:12:54Z")
**DtC** - I think by your measuring stick (gay marriage OK, pro-choice, pro-gun control and anti-death penalty), there has never been a liberal as a head of government. So asking for one that’s authoritarian is pointless. I go back to Elizabeth I - she pursued public education, avoided wars, was relatively tolerant of Catholics - but believed in a strong monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/36 "2006-07-13T19:15:03Z")
Just outta curiousity, does anyone know if the Republican smear campaign against Dean has begun yet? (And thanks for the mini book review; I might try to get a copy this weekend, if I get the chance to visit the bookstore) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/37 "2006-07-13T19:17:34Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Just outta curiousity, does anyone know if the Republican smear campaign against Dean has begun yet? [/QUOTE] No, they’re waiting for the Democratic smear campaign against Lieberman to die down so they can see if there’s anything they can learn. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/38 "2006-07-13T19:35:06Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Can somebody name a liberal authoritarian? I can’t. (FYI, I don’t consider Communist dictators to be liberal, so don’t bother naming them. Socially, they’re fascists. There’s no such thing as a totalitarian liberal.) [/QUOTE] Not a political leader, but many of the SDS types I used to know might qualify. They were socially liberal (in terms of sex and drugs, at least) but a lot of them had an authoritarian streak, and I’d hate to think of what would have happened if any of them actually took power. I agree with you about the Soviet Union. My understanding is that the Communists were quite puritanical. Not about LBJ, though. You’re asking for him to be radical, not liberal, in terms of the politics of the time. As far as civil rights went, he was quite liberal, especially considering his background. But I agree that I don’t see him as authoritarian - his Senate experience taught him how to compromise, which is something the current crop of “leaders” is not into. **ambushed** , from your review I assume the Dean book includes the results of studies, and will provide the cites people are asking for. Is that right? And thanks for the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/39 "2006-07-13T19:41:25Z")
I’m going to conced LBJ as a liberal but not as an authoritarian. QE1? Maybe. I’m not sure that either left-right politics or modern definitions of authoritarians are really applicable but I guess she technically fits the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313/40 "2006-07-13T19:46:19Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Well the OP was talking about AUTHORITARIAN conservatives and I do think that authoritarians are more likely to use religion as a way to justify their actions as well as to twist it in a manner which will soothe whatever conscience they may have. These kinds of people are almost always social conservatives. Social conservatism is almost _defined_ by lack of empathy, lack of tolerance and lack of self-reflection. I don’t think that social liberals often become tribalistic, bigoted and controlling enough to engage in the same kind of self-righteous, self-serving religiosity that Bush and his ilk are so known for. [/QUOTE] Diogenes, this is pretty pathetic. You define conservatism as lack of empathy, lack of tolerance, and lack of self-reflection, then anyone who lacks empathy, tolerance, and self-relfection is a conservative. Then you challenge anyone to find a liberal with a lack of etc…but that’s impossible, because anyone who lacks etc is a conservative…even Joseph Stalin was a conservative, because he lacked etc! Lame. Lame. Lame. Diogenes, if I had to pick a poster child for “lack of self-reflection” on the SDMB, it would be you. This is your crime…it is also your punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deans-conservatives-without-conscience/364313.md?page=3)