# Dear Alabama voters: way to go, you chuckleheads. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694 "2003-09-10T05:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/41 "2003-09-11T13:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nocturne \* > Really? I’ve been in Alabama all my life and I haven’t seen that wonderful education system yet. I had to teach myself math in high school, and so did all my classmates. I wonder if it has to do with the individual school and the teachers therein. I attended a small high school (600 students) in rural Alabama, about an hour away from Birmingham. Our math department consisted of two teachers (as did our science department). By all rights, my education should have been lacking. And yet I took algebra, geometry, algebra II, trigonometry and calculus in high school, along with biology, chemistry and physics. Our teachers were fantastic. Students from my high school regularly won or placed well in science fairs and math fairs in our county, district, and even at the state level – one even flew to Houston for the national science fair when I was a senior. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/42 "2003-09-11T14:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LonesomePolecat \* > \*\*You’re a bigot. \*\* **elucidator** may be a whole lot of unpleasant things, but I seriously doubt he’s a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/43 "2003-09-11T15:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\ ***Orge: I gotta get out of this goddamned hellhole.** > > See, its a brain drain. Kids like Orge come to Alabama to get a proper education and when they graduate they want to leave. > Good-bye Orge, best of luck, go wash out your mouth with soap and come back when you have matured and acquired some walk-around-sense and decent manners . And take heart, you will. Ah, where to start? First, a word of advice: creatively misspelling a person’s username is about as funny and clever as a gunshot wound. Ha. Ha. Ha. Second, I’m an Alabamian born and bred. I was born in Montgomery, went to school in Alabama, and obtained both a bachelor’s and a master’s here, so you are cordially invited to take your laid-back-plantation-cavalier-ah-magnolia-poor-people-who-needs-em attitude and shove it right up your mint julep, sweetheart. Also, it’s not that difficult to learn the quote function. You **do** realize, furthermore, that you’re quoting in good ol’ Union blue, right? Ain’t that a hangin’ offense in your ideal Alabama, Gen’ral? > [@](#): > > \*\* Ogre: … Pork was outlawed by the bill. Pet projects could no longer be funded through state money.\*\* > > Well slap my knee **Orge** , why didn’t you say so. Way back in nineteen ought three we outlawed car stealing in Alabama and a car ain’t been stole since. Excellent logic! So we should just take the theft laws off the books! Do you even read your own posts? > [@](#): > > Most of the other people writing on this thread just can’t imagine how embarrassing it is to wake up one fine morning and find out that your newly elected Governor is a transvestite. As long as he thinks of the people of Alabama before he thinks of ALFA, he can be a screaming, flaming nelly queen, for all I care. > [@](#): > > So now that his tax scheme has been overwhelmingly rejected by the good people of Alabama I hope Miss Bob Riley will now go back into the closet and then re-emerge wearing clothing fitting the manly fiscally-responsible republican conservative that we elected last year. Ah. I see. Your pocketbook might have been impacted by the tax plan. What was it, a few bucks in property tax? An extra percentage on your income tax? But hey, screw the poor bastard making $10,000 a year in Wilcox County and trying to support a family. As long as you don’t have to pay an extra buck or two. Yes, folks, serfdom is alive and well in the deep South. > [@](#): > > Alabama is but a poor backward state…" For accuracy’s sake, you should have stopped right there. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/44 "2003-09-11T17:10:47Z")
I have to agree with **Sauron** that one school does not a representative sample make. And with **atticus** that there’s a lot of ways to make the results of a test that a lot of people don’t take (such as the ACT) unrepresentative. OTOH, the NAEP results that **atticus** cited should be a reasonably accurate benchmark. Going back to the subject of the OP, it seems to me that Alabama’s guv put forward a plan that (a) addressed the budget shortfall, (b) attempted to address some of Alabama’s ongoing unmet needs, and © made a pretty good (not perfect, but pretty good) stab at reforming the state tax code. What I’d like to ask is, (1) is the guv’s plan better or worse than the status quo? and (2) is anyone else likely to put forward a better plan? Seems that a lot of people can find things they don’t like about the plan, but I have a hard time believing that his proposal really would be a step backwards for Alabama. Any comments? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/45 "2003-09-11T18:11:49Z")
Yes. You’re right. There are parts of the plan I wasn’t skippy with…like the aforementioned service tax. But on the whole, the reforms would have been a very large step in taking Alabama out of its 1855 agrarian mindset and into at least he cutting edge of the oh, 1970’s or so. And no. Now the very words “tax reform” (much like “lottery”) are anathema here. They will forever be associated with the Republican governor who thought of the poor people before he thought of the corporate special interests, and thus betrayed the Alabama GOP party. It will be 20, maybe 30 years before any governor has the balls to try updating the tax code again, to say nothing of a constitutional convention to fix the huge goddamn mess _that’s_ in. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/46 "2003-09-11T21:18:59Z")
Here’s an excerpt from a recent piece in _The Nation_ on the Alabama vote. I can’t provide a link, because it’s a paid subscriber-only website. > [@](#): > > Approval would mean a first step toward overhauling one of the most regressive state tax structures in the United States. Proportionally, Alabama taxes its poorest citizens three times as much as its wealthiest. > > \ > > Riley’s crusade has angered many former supporters and split the state’s Republican Party into old- versus new-economy factions. Leading the opposition is the CEO of SouthTrust, a regional holding company with the largest assets of any Alabama-based bank; the Alabama Forestry Association; and the Alabama Farmers Federation–powerful organizations dominated by large landowners and transnational wood and paper companies. These are the prime beneficiaries of the existing property-tax structure. Trees cover more than 70 percent of Alabama, and forestry is the state’s leading industry, yet taxes on forest land make up less than 2 percent of all property-tax income. On board with the governor are the mainline religious denominations, the powerful teachers association, African-American elected officials, the state’s major newspapers, new technology businesses and manufacturers with desires for a more educated work force, Alabama Power and the antipoverty coalition Alabama Arise. The national Christian Coalition, which knew Riley in Congress, supports the amendment, while the Alabama chapter is staunchly opposed. Although they have the most to gain from Amendment One, many poor and working-class white Alabamians oppose it, harboring antigovernment hostility that remains part of the bitter legacy of George Wallace. They are egged on by local talk-radio clones of Limbaugh and Hannity, and by a media misinformation campaign. African-Americans, a quarter of the electorate, will play a major role; almost all voted against Riley but are now doing double takes. > > Going into the final week trailing in the polls, the Riley coalition is warning of budgetary chaos and deep layoffs if Amendment One fails. The “Vote Yes” forces are turning to the state’s most popular celebrity, Ruben Studdard, whose sweet style of soul singing pours Southern comfort on black and white alike, and who will headline “Believe in Alabama” concerts in Birmingham and Mobile. Outside the state, the impending election is raising conservative anxiety, lest a movement demanding that the wealthy pay their fair tax share spreads from this unlikely epicenter. A vicious Wall Street Journal editorial has accused the governor of “aping the worst kind of liberal demagoguery.” This was written before the vote, obviously. Do the Alabamans here see this as a reasonable summary of the situation? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/47 "2003-09-11T21:19:12Z")
No, no, and no. As even members of Riley’s party admitted, the tax plan he championed had hidden impact on the working poor. If this is the best Riley can propose to “think of the poor people before he thought of the corporate special interests,” then he ain’t thinkin’ hard enough. To re-quote an excerpt from The Birmingham News: "People disliked the part of Riley’s plan that would have imposed state and local sales taxes on labor charges for repairs and installations. (Republican State Senator Jabo) Waggoner said people complained to him the most about the services tax. Marty Connors, chairman of the state Republican Party, said the services tax would have affected everyone, including poor people, which undercut Riley’s claim that the package would have eased the overall tax burden on the poor." There’s a reason most small-business owners were against this tax plan. And small businesses employ the majority of workers in this state. I am never going to vote for a tax proposal that increases our tax burden without at least SOME rock-solid indication of how the money is going to be used. Promises are well and good, but I’ve been burned enough with political promises not to trust them. Hence my distrust regarding the funding of the scholarship program. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/48 "2003-09-11T21:57:05Z")
You Ogre! You…damn you…you and your sorry kind have kept the black folks indentured in the southeastern counties of Alabama since the great depression of 1932. Your dole, your pittance, enought to appease your sense of superiority yet barely enought to feed a hungry family of four, but only enought , barely, to keep them locked in to an unproductive land that they dearly love. You are lower than snakes. You judge a man soley by his economic station in life. Not by his honor. Not by his honesty. Not by his goodlyness. You are an abomination. You judge a man only by his net worth. May God have mercy on your dark black soul. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/49 "2003-09-11T22:02:09Z")
If any of the people who wrote this plan seriously thought it was going to pass, they are way too naive to be working in politics. There is so much stuff in that plan that everyone can find a reason to be against it. I don’t know if the good outweighs the bad, as I no longer live in Alabama and I didn’t study the plan that much. But if they are serious about changing the tax system, they need to do it one thing at a time to have any chance of success. And they need to start by increasing property taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/50 "2003-09-11T22:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*You Ogre! You…damn you…you and your sorry kind have kept the black folks indentured in the southeastern counties of Alabama since the great depression of 1932. Your dole, your pittance, enought to appease your sense of superiority yet barely enought to feed a hungry family of four, but only enought , barely, to keep them locked in to an unproductive land that they dearly love. > > You are lower than snakes. You judge a man soley by his economic station in life. Not by his honor. Not by his honesty. Not by his goodlyness. You are an abomination. You judge a man only by his net worth. > > May God have mercy on your dark black soul. \*\* You’re a complete fool. Your sudden appeal to _argumentum ad hominem_ reveals more about you than about me. Please note that until you argue with substance instead of personal insults, unwarranted assumptions, and inane blandishments, I will utterly ignore you, while snidely snickering behind my hand at your insanity. Bye now. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/51 "2003-09-11T22:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*You Ogre! You…damn you…you and your sorry kind have kept the black folks indentured in the southeastern counties of Alabama since the great depression of 1932. Your dole, your pittance, enought to appease your sense of superiority yet barely enought to feed a hungry family of four, but only enought , barely, to keep them locked in to an unproductive land that they dearly love. > > You are lower than snakes. You judge a man soley by his economic station in life. Not by his honor. Not by his honesty. Not by his goodlyness. You are an abomination. You judge a man only by his net worth. > > May God have mercy on your dark black soul. \*\* Go to your bathroom cabinet, take out the pills, and slowly and carefully read the instructions. You have either been taking too many, or not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/52 "2003-09-11T22:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Marty Connors, chairman of the state Republican Party, said the services tax would have affected everyone, including poor people, which undercut Riley’s claim that the package would have eased the overall tax burden on the poor." Sure, it would have had some impact on everybody, but I contend that a few bucks here and there for repairs would not offset the overall benefits of an income tax cut, especially on the scale of this plan. Moreover, who generally has more remodeling/repair/addition/installation done, the working poor, or the welthy who have money to spend on refurbishment? I therefore contend that even this tax, while I still think it was an ultimately bad idea, would have hit the wealthy harder. And yes, it is very different from taxing Alabama Power, because the tax increase would have trickled down in the form of higher rates every single month, constantly. Repairs and installations are occasional expenses, folks. Ultimately, I think **HowieReynolds** is probably right. It was an extremely ambitious plan, and it included reforms on all levels of the tax structure, as well as education, overall state budget, etc. There was just too much, too soon in it (even though I’ll argue until I run out of breath that it’s just the right amount of reforms, but waaaaaay, way overdue.) ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/53 "2003-09-11T22:55:14Z")
Oh, and **mhendo** , I see that excerpt as an eminently reasonable, if a bit histrionic, summation of the situation. The bits about the proportional taxes on the poor and the taxes on timber and farm interests (70% of which, incidentally, would _not_ have been affected in the least by the tax plan) are of particular interest, as the timber and farm interests were the primary forces behind the Tax Accountability Coalition, the ones that paid through the nose for the negative campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/54 "2003-09-11T22:59:03Z")
Agh. For clarity, I meant that 70% of the state’s **farms** would not have been affected by the tax reforms. Timber most certainly would have. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/55 "2003-09-11T23:29:56Z")
Well, **Ogre**. you’ve hit upon the crucial difference between your state and Texas. Yours is in the grip of monied interests that would stuff your granny into a wood chipper if they could make a buck. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/56 "2003-09-12T00:29:49Z")
By **RTfirefly** : “What I’d like to ask is, (1) is the guv’s plan better or worse than the status quo? and (2) is anyone else likely to put forward a better plan?” 1)Two thirds of those who voted thought the status quo was better. 2)In bits and pieces, over time, maybe. I don’t believe all at once will be tried again in the memory of living man. Honest to og, this is actually happened: A Riley staff member, when asked two weeks ago why the proposal was trailing in the polls, replied: “Because the voters of Alabama are too stupid to vote for it.” Way to muster support for your position, Dude. On the slim chance that you are being serious, **elucidator** , try shitting all over the oil boys in Texas or the citrus industry in Florida. You’d get the same results in those states. Do those of you who heard them _really_ believe all the lousy advertisements, pro or con, had much affect on this vote’s outcome? Who listens to those things anyway? I heard a lot of people talking about the real issues, around coffee shops and gas stations. I heard a lot of people that had problems with this proposal. I had teachers tell me in private that they were going to vote against this, even though they were all but commanded to support the proposal. I feel comfortable with my “No” vote. ---
**Author:** ![verbenabeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@verbenabeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verbenabeast)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/57 "2003-09-12T01:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Ogre_ > This plan, which was rather incompletely described as a “tax hike” on the link I provided (it was a tax hike on the wealthy and the corporate interests, who basically pay jack shit as it stands now, but I’ll get into that later…but a substantial tax relief on the poor) would have: > > · reformed Alabama’s medieval fucking tax code. It would have raised the tax threshold for income tax from the current $4,600 per year (yeah, you read that shit right) to a national norm of $16,500. That alone should have been enough to pass the bill. Although I agree the code needs reformation… this ain’t the way. Screw “tax thresholds”… for that matter screw income taxes. I’ll take a flat tax… or none at all. I can’t stand to even think about a TAX on making a living. The whole concept is putrid. “Beast… you busted your ass and made more than poverty wages. Congrats… I’ll take that.” I am a single man with no kids owning his own home, making less than 30k a year… I guess I am wealthy or corporate, ‘cuz my taxes would’ve gone up substantially. Fuck that. > [@](#): > > · increased the dependent allowance substantially. Good idea… let’s give the baby-factories a raise, and screw the working guy some more. > [@](#): > > · covered the $675 million state deficit, A deficit created by uncontrolled spending… Besides, that number is a guess. They don’t even have a budget yet. > [@](#): > > · outlawed pass-through pork projects, making them jailable offenses _OUTLAWED PORK?!?!_ All the Riley plan _WAS_ is pork! The tax-and-spenders would’ve had a huge account of free money to do with as they please… > [@](#): > > Great so far, right? Well, one of the unfortunate side effects of all this earmarking is that Alabamians are so paranoid about “Montgomery fat cats” that there are no ways to pass the money between programs if it’s needed. Thus, if the education general fund runs out of money midyear (which it does…every year,) there is simply no legal way to transfer money from another program, even if it is swimming in cash. Thus, OOPS, proration…again, and schools have to do things like not run air conditioners to save power, force the teachers to spend their own personal money on classroom supplies, and fire all district janitorial staffs except one or two, who are on constant rotations within a school district. Well… let’s go with a hypothetical… Let’s say you have an employee that you send to the grocery store, the hardware store, and Wal-Mart… and let’s say this employee has a habit of overspending… _bad_… do you limit how much he can spend at each place, or no? I would prefer to fire him outright… But I don’t think we are ready for that. So let’s at least keep a lock on the henhouse door… The best way to avoid “running out of funds mid-year” is a little thing called a budget. When I “run out of funds” I get to either go hungry, or quit spending money… the government is no better. > [@](#): > > But the opponents of the plan, which was wildly popular before say, July, put up an aggressive ad campaign based on scare tactics, mudslinging, and outright lies. They said there was no accountability. Bullshit. They said there was no financial commitment to schools. Bullshit. They said taxes would rise. Bullshit. For nearly 70% of taxpayers, taxes would have fallen or stayed the same. They had grim images of grinning, seersucker suit-wearing carpetbagger types sucking on ridiculously oversized cigars and presumably counting their ill-gotten lucre at the expense of po’ hardworking Joe Average. Ever been to the state legislature? Grinning, seersucker suit-wearing carpetbagger types is _exactly_ what they are. > [@](#): > > Folks, you got punked. ALFA, the Alabama Cattleman’s Association, the timber companies, and the chemical companies simply had more money to throw at the problem. All they really had to do was play on Alabama’s mistrust of “Montgomery politicos” and the battle was half over. This statement proves you have not researched the plan. You certainly wouldn’t mention “throwing money” at a problem if you had. My mistrust was hard-earned and is richly deserved. This plan was “tax and spend” business as usual… just on a grander scale. They do not know how to “fix” the problem… so they throw more money. In fact more money is the goal, not a solution, IMO. > [@](#): > > You jackasses voted today to keep Alabama’s taxes regressive, force huge state budget cuts which will slash thousands of jobs, and keep the same-old-same-old good ol’ boy network in full fucking power. > > And when March comes around, if any of you idiots has the gall to bitch that we’re in another prorated year, or moan about overcrowded prisons, or complain when your state job gets hacked, or bitch that those damn Montgomery fat cats never look out for the little guy, I’m going to laugh in your fucking face. Either prorate or spend responsibly. You won’t hear me bitch… I think the government should be permanently prorated. When Riley made his whiney “I hear the State of Alabama saying ‘we want smaller government’” speech, I thought “damn skippy!” That’s EXACTLY what I want. In fact, Dr. Mark Thornton (a senior research fellow at Ludwig von Mises Institute, a highly respected economics research center) said that > [@](#): > > Alabama is the “highest revenue state in the region (and that) the relative size and scope of state government in Alabama exceeds that of our surrounding states.” and > [@](#): > > In the case of education, Alabama spends the biggest share of its state budget on schools in our five-state area. concluding that > [@](#): > > Throwing more taxpayer money into an inefficient, less-productive, oversized state government is not the answer and never will be. If believing that sending more of my money to people that have proven time and again that they can not handle the responsibility of good stewardship, and budgeting and all those other things we as citizens have to do every day makes me a “jackass” and an “idiot”… then color me an idiotic jackass. I am as mad as hell, and I ain’t gonna take it any more. In the recent past class sizes in Alabama have decreased, and spending per student has gone up… but test scores stay the same… there are more problems afoot than money. The Montgomery stooges are just saying “do it for the children” and “do the right thing” as a poorly veiled attempt at shaming us into giving them more money to waste. Even if all the above were not true, I’d have voted against strictly based on the fact that it’s very existence is a lie. Riley got elected saying he would find and fix the problems before even addressing funds. He even said that if the government were held accountable they had all the money they needed. NOw we get an attempt at the biggest tax increase _ever_ > [@](#): > > I gotta get out of this goddamned hellhole. see ya ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/58 "2003-09-12T03:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Screw “tax thresholds”… for that matter screw income taxes. I’ll take a flat tax… or none at all. I can’t stand to even think about a TAX on making a living. The whole concept is putrid. “Beast… you busted your ass and made more than poverty wages. Congrats… I’ll take that.” I am a single man with no kids owning his own home, making less than 30k a year… I guess I am wealthy or corporate, ‘cuz my taxes would’ve gone up substantially. Fuck that. Define “substantially.” $30K a year for a single homeowner in this state puts you firmly in the middle class. Which means your income tax would have gone up a pittance, if at all. Your property tax would definitely have gone up, but I doubt it would break the bank, since you pay so little in state (note that I said state…I don’t know what your local tax rate is) property tax. As for your ludicrous ultimatum about the flat tax, give me a break. A flat tax will never, ever, ever, ever, for any reason, EVER pass in this state. There are exactly six states with a flat tax rate, and all of them are a hell of a lot more progressive than Alabama. Seriously, if you can’t get Alabamians to agree that lower taxes for something like 70% of the total population is a good idea, what on earth makes you think they’ll agree to an idea like the flat tax rate? Almost makes me dismiss the rest of your response out of hand. > [@](#): > > Good idea… let’s give the baby-factories a raise, and screw the working guy some more. Lovely. So you think we should financially punish people for having children, which altogether a natural thing to do. > [@](#): > > A deficit created by uncontrolled spending… Besides, that number is a guess. They don’t even have a budget yet. It’s an educated guess. They’re already talking about releasing inmates, going to 4-day school weeks, cutting janitorial staff, cutting off funding to certain schools, hacking medicaid, reducing overall state funding by nearly 20% for most agencies, etc. This is not “trimming the fat.” This is “cutting to the bone,” and it’s a bad thing. > [@](#): > > OUTLAWED PORK?!?! All the Riley plan WAS is pork! The tax-and-spenders would’ve had a huge account of free money to do with as they please… Please revisit the definition of pass-through pork, note again that the money in the fund was in fact under scrutiny from a multilateral, multi-party oversight committee, and that pet projects were punishable by jail time under the tax plan(which, by the way, they aren’t now), then reflect how your wild-eyed little outburst is demonstrably wrong. Then go sit in the corner. > [@](#): > > The best way to avoid “running out of funds mid-year” is a little thing called a budget. When I “run out of funds” I get to either go hungry, or quit spending money… the government is no better. The government is, in fact, different, because when their money runs out, we all suffer. Prisons get closed, schools get closed, medicaid gets cut, people get turned out of nursing homes, etc. Budgeting, by the way, is a phenomenon that has limited use here in the great state of Alabama, because of the aforementioned earmarking bullshit. A certain percentage of state funds _will_ go to education, highways, etc. because it’s in the Constitution, and there is no way to redistribute those funds. Welcome to the 18th century. > [@](#): > > They do not know how to “fix” the problem… so they throw more money. In fact more money is the goal, not a solution, IMO. Along with a complete overhaul of a tax code written in the early part of the last century, which purposefully slanted in the favor of the rich and the corporations, at the blatant expense of the poorest. Oh, and they know perfectly well how to fix the problem…rewrite the goddamn moldy old constitution…but the chances of that happening are somewhere between that of a lottery and David Aronov allowing downtown Montgomery to be refurbished. > [@](#): > > there are more problems afoot than money Yeah, and the plan would have taken a huge first step in addressing them…such as tenure reform, easing the stranglehold the AEA has on state education, freeing up money from an antiquated, inefficient, dead-end earmarking structure which is killing the state, and outlawing pet projects which are rampant now, and because of the failure of the plan, will be for the foreseeable future. The little seersucker suit-wearing “Montgomery stooges” sitting in their offices at ALFA are laughing their asses off at you. > [@](#): > > The Montgomery stooges are just saying “do it for the children” and “do the right thing” as a poorly veiled attempt at shaming us into giving them more money to waste. Hell, then you ought to be lobbying for a constitutional convention. You are, aren’t you? No? Why not? > [@](#): > > Riley got elected saying he would find and fix the problems before even addressing funds. He even said that if the government were held accountable they had all the money they needed. NOw we get an attempt at the biggest tax increase ever. He got there and found out it’s utterly futile under our current tax and financial structure. So he decided in classic fashion to try cutting, instead of untying, the Gordian Knot. Good for him, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/59 "2003-09-12T13:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > Sure, it would have had some impact on everybody, but I contend that a few bucks here and there for repairs would not offset the overall benefits of an income tax cut, especially on the scale of this plan. Moreover, who generally has more remodeling/repair/addition/installation done, the working poor, or the welthy who have money to spend on refurbishment? I therefore contend that even this tax, while I still think it was an ultimately bad idea, would have hit the wealthy harder. You’re thinking about this backwards. Who is more likely to keep a car running long past the time it should be retired by engaging in an ongoing series of minor repairs, rather than buy a new car? Who is more likely to have the repairman come look at the 20-year-old refrigerator rather than purchase a new one? Who is more likely to try to add a room onto an existing house to increase space, rather than purchase a larger house? The “working poor,” that’s who. Who are the people who tend to provide these types of services? The “working poor,” that’s who. So this plan would simultaneously have increased taxes on the poor (in effect punishing them for not buying new goods) while simultaneously depriving them of business, because the cost of the services they provide would have to go up. If you want some sort of tax reform in Alabama, you’re gonna need grassroots support. Alienating the majority of voters (who work for small businesses) ain’t the way to generate that support. ---
**Author:** ![verbenabeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@verbenabeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verbenabeast)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/60 "2003-09-12T14:51:25Z")
starting at the bottom and working up… [quote] _originally by Ogre_ Hell, then you ought to be lobbying for a constitutional convention. You are, aren’t you? No? Why not? [quote] every day… but somehow there is more vocal support for soaking the working man… > [@](#): > > Yeah, and the plan would have taken a huge first step in addressing them that’s the problem… the plan wasn’t launched as a “step” first or otherwise… it was launched as the “solution”. And it was no solution to anything… other than the question of how I would invest a lot of my savings… cause I would just be sending that through to Montgomery. > [@](#): > > easing the stranglehold the AEA has on state education Ha! The AEA _WROTE_ a lot of this plan! Dr Paul R. Hubbert, AEA Executive Secretary, was one of it’s staunchest supporters… “Easing the stranglehold” indeed. > [@](#): > > The government is, in fact, different, because when their money runs out, we all suffer. Prisons get closed, schools get closed, medicaid gets cut, people get turned out of nursing homes, etc. Budgeting, by the way, is a phenomenon that has limited use here in the great state of Alabama, because of the aforementioned earmarking bullshit. A certain percentage of state funds will go to education, highways, etc. because it’s in the Constitution, and there is no way to redistribute those funds. Welcome to the 18th century. Regardless of the overall percentage each individual program gets, that program has the option to budget the money _they are already earmarked to recieve_… when that program runs out… they should be done. Let us re-visit the words of the economist, Mark Thornton from my earlier post… which you apparently missed in it’s entirety… _"Alabama is the highest revenue state in the region… the relative size and scope of state government in Alabama exceeds that of our surrounding states… Throwing more taxpayer money into an inefficient, less-productive, oversized state government is not the answer and never will be. "_ Too much government, too much spending. > [@](#): > > Lovely. So you think we should financially punish people for having children, which altogether a natural thing to do. Nope. I never said _anyone_ should be punished… I just fail to see the reason behind placing a bounty on having children. You are welcome to have all the kids you want, and shouldn’t be punished for it… but neither should you be rewarded. On to the general points… You cry about Alabama Power, in particular, not getting taxed enough… you fail to realize the signifigance of this… because of this your, my, and every consumer in the state’s power bills are the lowest in the region. Tax Alabama Power? They wouldn’t mind too much… they’d just charge us all more for are power service… punishing the poor. (also, please note I said _less_ than 30k… it is not nearly as much as you would like to think. Yes, I am probably in the “middle class”… a far, far cry from the top 30% you say will be the only to pay more taxes) Anyone in the _world_ is welcome to laugh at me for doing what I think is right, and defending my own best interests. Especially when those best interests coincide with the best interests of this state. If you want to pay more, you are welcome to… just don’t tell me I am an idiot for wanting my money spent wisely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694.md?page=4)