# Dear Alabama voters: way to go, you chuckleheads. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694 "2003-09-10T05:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/61 "2003-09-12T17:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Carter of Mars \* > By **RTfirefly** : “What I’d like to ask is, (1) is the guv’s plan better or worse than the status quo? and (2) is anyone else likely to put forward a better plan?” > > 1)Two thirds of those who voted thought the status quo was better. Since I can’t ask them what sort of comparison they made between the status quo and the guv’s proposal, and why they found the latter worse than the former, how about you, **John**? What do you think, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/62 "2003-09-12T20:17:17Z")
**verbenabeast** , at least try to get my arguments correct, please. > [@](#): > > that’s the problem… the plan wasn’t launched as a “step” first or otherwise… it was launched as the “solution”. Justify this statement in light of the fact that the tax code is a part of the Alabama constitution, and as such, can’t just be changed when it’s outdated, please. By this point, we are so out of date (read, tax code was written in the early part of the 20th century) that any “first step” is going to look like a total radical overhaul. I don’t see going through the trouble to have an amendment pass the house, senate, and public vote every time they want to adjust the tax rate a percentage or two. That’s my point. Any adjustment to the constitution will have to be a largish package plan, or else the legislature will simply kick it back with a “screw this. Too much work for nothing.” They’re reconsidering just the property tax portions right now because of desperation. > [@](#): > > Ha! The AEA WROTE a lot of this plan! Dr Paul R. Hubbert, AEA Executive Secretary, was one of it’s staunchest supporters… “Easing the stranglehold” indeed. Actually, Hubbard is one of the only visionaries to hold that post in years…and it’s because the AEA is up against a wall. People are sick of tenured deadwood teachers, proration every year, lack of school supplies, and decomposed, outdated textbooks. Better an education reform plan he helped write than one that would have been (and will be) forced on them eventually. > [@](#): > > Regardless of the overall percentage each individual program gets, that program has the option to budget the money they are already earmarked to recieve… when that program runs out… they should be done. So you think the earmarking scheme laid out before there were such things as, say, computers, has anything at all to do with today’s budgetary needs, and when they run out of money, they should just run out, because what was good enough for your grandfather’s grandfather ought to be good enough for today’s kids? > [@](#): > > "Alabama is the highest revenue state in the region… the relative size and scope of state government in Alabama exceeds that of our surrounding states… Throwing more taxpayer money into an inefficient, less-productive, oversized state government is not the answer and never will be. " I ignored this because I’m not going to get into a battle of authoritative appeals. I could provide you with dozens of stellar quotes that support the plan, including personal testimonials from three former heads of the Alabama Public Library Service, several teachers (tenured and otherwise,) a professor or two, and [Dr. David Bronner](http://president.jsu.edu/articles/Bronner.html), who has already proven his economic acumen in this state to the tune of [$24 billion](http://finance.lycos.com/qc/news/story.aspx?story=35163278) in monetary and diversified assets, including a square block of Manhattan, but I won’t. Such a thing is non-productive, and we’d play Dueling Quotations all day. > [@](#): > > On to the general points… You cry about Alabama Power, in particular, not getting taxed enough… you fail to realize the signifigance of this… because of this your, my, and every consumer in the state’s power bills are the lowest in the region. Tax Alabama Power? They wouldn’t mind too much… they’d just charge us all more for are power service… punishing the poor. No dear, that was another poster altogether. I said it is perfectly understandable why Alabama Power was not being handed a tax increase. Do try to keep the arguments straight. > [@](#): > > (also, please note I said less than 30k… it is not nearly as much as you would like to think. Yes, I am probably in the “middle class”… a far, far cry from the top 30% you say will be the only to pay more taxes) Actually, according to most sources, only those who make more than $40K would have had a tax hike, so your only increase would have probably been in property tax. And that’s ridiculously low, regardless if you own a $50,000 house or 100,000 acres of timberland in Choctaw County. > [@](#): > > Especially when those best interests coincide with the best interests of this state. The best interests of the state lie in remaining with a late-Reconstruction-era tax system and budgeting scheme? Fascinating. Better the devil you know, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/63 "2003-09-12T21:16:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > Actually, Hubbard is one of the only visionaries to hold that post in years…and it’s because the AEA is up against a wall. People are sick of tenured deadwood teachers, proration every year, lack of school supplies, and decomposed, outdated textbooks. Better an education reform plan he helped write than one that would have been (and will be) forced on them eventually. Hubbard? A visionary? Please. If the AEA is up against a wall, he pushed them there. He’s been the head of the damn thing for 20 years. If people are truly sick of “tenured deadwood teachers, proration every year, etc.” why on earth would you recommend letting Hubbard script the solution to those problems? He’s a substantial portion of the cause of many of those problems you list. > [@](#): > > The best interests of the state lie in remaining with a late-Reconstruction-era tax system and budgeting scheme? Fascinating. Better the devil you know, huh? In this case, the devil I know is infinitely preferable to the devil I know with an extra $1.2 billion in discretionary money, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/64 "2003-09-12T21:36:37Z")
You’re right. “Visionary” is a loaded and likely inaccurate term. The second part of my statement is closer to the truth, I think. Better a plan that he and the AEA were able to influence than a plan that will be forced on them eventually. And “discretionary money” is a loaded and misleading term as well. There were mechanisms in place for the oversight of how that money was spent. The way I see it is that there were two ways to go about it: 1) untie the Gordian Knot that is Alabama’s constitution. Hold a constitutional convention, scrap all the bullshit amendments cluttering the document (several hundred at last count, right?). Rewrite the thing with foresight and planning for the next century, allowing provisions for the relatively easy revisitation of the amendments later, or 2) circumvent that process and add an amendment which addresses all the same reforms, but doesn’t rely on the mess of a constitutional convention. Riley chose the second option, probably because a full-scale constitutional convention, while badly needed, has never been popular in the state. It would be a long, drawn-out, expensive, messy proposition. A new amendment on the scale of the Tax Plan, while being messy and drawn-out itself, was a model of economy and efficiency compared to the monstrous undertaking of rewriting the constitution. Now both avenues are closed, and any changes that occur will be ill-thought, reactive, and made on the spur of the moment. Business as usual for the great state of Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/65 "2003-09-12T21:59:56Z")
If you’re telling me that Riley hasn’t thought through a fallback plan in case his tax plan failed and that he’ll have to engage in a series of knee-jerk reactionary moves in an effort to keep the state afloat fiscally (a la Don Siegelman and the lottery), then I’ve lost a lot of faith in the man as a governor. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/66 "2003-09-12T23:27:36Z")
Well, he’s been saying it all along…tax plan or cuts. Looks like it’s going to be the cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/67 "2003-09-13T01:08:02Z")
And then\*\* Ogre\*\* stupidly said… “ **Well, he’s been saying it all along…tax plan or cuts. Looks like it’s going to be the cuts**.” * * * September 12 2003 Headline Birmingham News **PRYOR TELLS CITIZENS TO BUY GUNS AND BUGLAR ALARMS IN AFTERMATH OF GOVERNOR"S TAX DEFEAT.** _Montgomery._ People should buy home alarms and handguns or take other steps to protect themselves because looming budget cuts will erode the state’s ability to protect them from criminals, the state of Alabama’s Attorney General Bill Pryor said Thursday. * * * Really\*\* Ogre\*\*, have you and your **Riley** no shame? * * * ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/68 "2003-09-13T02:01:25Z")
Colorful sort, aren’t you? Wonder what’s on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/69 "2003-09-13T03:46:08Z")
**What’s on TV?** Now now little **Ogre** , are you being flippant? Give it up goodbuddy, you and your kind of thoughtless thinking belong back in the 20th century. Back when effete academicians and pseudo-intellectuals led our nation’s easily-led idealistic young hippie folks to believe in the false premiss of \*\*“educated class superiority” \*\*. **What’s on TV?** Look closely. See. The people of whom this nation has always been about rise _en masse_ against your illogical reconstructs of reality. Ah shoot! I now see that you will never see.\*\* May God bless you\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/70 "2003-09-13T05:05:05Z")
Man, this is fun. Is English your first language, or did you come by all this drafty, self-satisfied circumlocution honestly? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/71 "2003-09-13T12:38:44Z")
\*\*“drafty, self-satisfied circumlocution” Not bad, Ogre, not bad. But a bit clumsy and incomplete. Try… …colorful, drafty self-satisfied circumlocution with nuance and content and truth. ```auto How does an ignorant man recognise a wise man when he sees one? _______________________________ *Paul Bear Bryant 1972*** ____________________________________ :) ``` ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/72 "2003-09-13T13:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*Well, he’s been saying it all along…tax plan or cuts. Looks like it’s going to be the cuts. \*\* Not necessarily. Last night on a Birmingham news station a Riley aide said that they will revisit the lottery option. I’m rapidly losing faith in this man. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/73 "2003-09-13T14:01:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > **Is English your first language…** Of course it is. “Yee haw” were **Milum** ’s first words. Then he learned to say “Pass the Jack Daniels”, and has been like this ever since. ---
**Author:** ![Peace\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Peace\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peace_Lady)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/74 "2003-09-13T14:33:38Z")
Here is a born and raised Montgomery, Alabama girl talking: I VOTED NO, AND THAT VOTE WON BY DOUBLE. Anyone who voted yes is an imbecile. Over 800,000 people can’t be wrong. Peace Lady ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/75 "2003-09-13T15:32:35Z")
**"…Then he learned to say “Pass the Jack Daniels”, and has been like this ever since."** Very funny **Desmostylus** , but not funny. I was weaned on a fine Tennessee sippin’ whiskey named **George Dickel**. Earlier this year I visited the Dickel brewery in Tennessee and found out that the Dickel family hadn’t made any whiskey in over two years and are selling to consumers out of existing stock. I don’t know what to do. Damn it, they were probably overtaxed. By the way,\*\* Aussie\*\*, is mommie government taking good care of her sweet helpless little children in a nice cradle-to-grave way? I hope so, because the last I heard was that your economy was on the skids and sliding. Anyway, thanks for the troops in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/76 "2003-09-13T15:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*Not necessarily. Last night on a Birmingham news station a Riley aide said that they will revisit the lottery option. > > I’m rapidly losing faith in this man. \*\* Seriously. With all due respect, do you have a better plan? I mean, what’s left? Simple budgeting will not work, IMHO, because we’re facing a huge deficit, and the structure of the constitution is such that merely tightening our collective belts will have minimum effect. What exactly are we to do? Secondarily, how do we get those reforms that virtually everyone here, at the very least, has agreed we need? Keep in mind that ONLY another amendment or a constitutional convention can change the tax code. **Peace Lady** , I say this with the utmost respect: if you can’t intelligently add to the discussion, go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/77 "2003-09-13T15:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > **Very funny Desmostylus, but not funny. I was weaned on a fine Tennessee sippin’ whiskey named George Dickel. Earlier this year I visited the Dickel brewery in Tennessee and found out that the Dickel family hadn’t made any whiskey in over two years and are selling to consumers out of existing stock. I don’t know what to do. Damn it, they were probably overtaxed.** If any of that is true, then perhaps you shouldn’t say things [like this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3339704#post3339704): > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*Uh, no, John Mace. Not right now. Last night me and Jack Daniels knew. Now only Jack Daniels knows. I’ll ask him when I see him again next Saturday night. > > Sorry.\*\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Milum \* > **By the way,** Aussie_\*, is mommie government taking good care of her sweet helpless little children in a nice cradle-to-grave way? I hope so, because the last I heard was that your economy was on the skids and sliding.\*\* Huh? News to me. But then again, you probably can’t tell the difference between Australia and Albania, so it doesn’t really surprise me that you’d think that. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/78 "2003-09-13T16:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Peace Lady_ > > Anyone who voted yes is an imbecile. Over 800,000 people can’t be wrong. Whoa whoa whoa there, kid. I voted yes but I don’t think the people who voted no are imbeciles. If you want to appeal to the Majority is God idea, remember that for many years the majority of people on earth believed the earth was flat. Or, how many years ago, the majority of white Southerns believed Jim Crow was just a-okay. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/79 "2003-09-13T16:10:00Z")
**Milum** : [Aussie jobless rate at 13-year low](http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/9/12/business/6258525&sec=business) > [@](#): > > SYDNEY: Australia’s jobless rate fell to its lowest level in 13 years last month as employment jumped, raising expectations that the central bank will push up interest rates by early next year. > > \ > > Australia’s strengthening labour market is in sharp contrast to the United States’, where the economy is also in recovery but has so far failed to produce jobs. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694/80 "2003-09-13T20:55:31Z")
Pardon me\*\* Aussie\*\*, I got my stats from the CIA. They said that your unemployment rate was about six and a half per cent and things didn’t look so good this year because of the great drought of 2002. Sorry. I’m glad to hear that my mateys down under are doing fine. And **atticus** , you were absolutely right about the biased nature of the ACT tests that I guoted and then so casually compared the quality of state education in Alabama with North Carolina. I apologize. I am still looking for some favorable facts to back up my case. Let this be a lesson to all of us. I can’t run North Carolina and Australia from Alabama. And yall can’t run Alabama from North Carolina and Australia. So let’s make a pact and keep our big noses out of each other’s business. Agreed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-alabama-voters-way-to-go-you-chuckleheads/200694.md?page=5)