# Dear beowulff: re your remarks in the Life Insurance thread in GQ **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643 "2010-09-30T19:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/41 "2010-09-30T20:59:54Z")
> [@Death and Credit Card Debt](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-and-credit-card-debt/555606/16): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > Man, you people… > > I’m not arguing the specifics of this case. As far as the original thread goes, If she doesn’t pay back a dime, fine. > > Actually, what you said in the original thread was: > > > [@Death and Credit Card Debt](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-and-credit-card-debt/555606/16): > > > > His wife may not have to pay her deceased husbands CC debt, but it’s certainly true that you and I will. > > I don’t really see why everyone is rushing to attack the credit card companies, when the husband basically welshed on his debt. The ethical thing to do would be for the wife to make any effort to pay off the debt, rather than expect all the rest of us to pay it for her. > > So a few hours ago you certainly weren’t “fine” with her not paying a dime. Whether she makes an effort to pay is completely up to her. She needs to do what is right for her, and i don’t know anything about her situation. However, i suspect that if she did some soul-searching, she would come to the conclusion that at least part of her husband’s CC debt was of direct benefit to her, and therefore she would sleep better if she tried to pay it off. I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. If I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings. I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/42 "2010-09-30T21:02:17Z")
> [@Dante](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > If a husband (I’m not implying the OP in this case) knew he was going to die, and then went and charged up all his credit cards on trips, meals and household items (for use by the family), do all you folks think that it is morally OK for the wife to make no attempt to pay for it after he dies? > > Your going to give yourself a hernia moving those goalposts around. And you are artful, dodger. As I’ve said repeatedly, I couldn’t care less about her legal obligations. I just think that she is ethically responsible for some of the debt. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/43 "2010-09-30T21:04:00Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@muldoonthief](#): > > > > Actually, what you said in the original thread was: > > > > So a few hours ago you certainly weren’t “fine” with her not paying a dime. > > Whether she makes an effort to pay is completely up to her. She needs to do what is right for her, and i don’t know anything about her situation. However, i suspect that if she did some soul-searching, she would come to the conclusion that at least part of her husband’s CC debt was of direct benefit to her, and therefore she would sleep better if she tried to pay it off. > > I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. If I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings. I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. The level of your jackassery is truly stunning, **beowulff**. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/44 "2010-09-30T21:08:39Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. If I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings. I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. And if you got divorced she would not in any way be obligated (morally, or otherwise) to pay for debt which she did not incur. Why should it be different if he died? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/45 "2010-09-30T21:09:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > Whether she makes an effort to pay is completely up to her. She needs to do what is right for her, and i don’t know anything about her situation. However, i suspect that if she did some soul-searching, she would come to the conclusion that at least part of her husband’s CC debt was of direct benefit to her, and therefore she would sleep better if she tried to pay it off. > > > > I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. If I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings. I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. > > The level of your jackassery is truly stunning, **beowulff**. Well, I’ve been an admirer of your posts for years… ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/46 "2010-09-30T21:12:13Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. If I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings. I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. > > And if you got divorced she would not in any way be obligated (morally, or otherwise) to pay for debt which she did not incur. Why should it be different if he died? Well, I’m not alone in thinking that this is not right: > [@](#): > > Debt incurred during a marriage is generally the joint responsibility of both parties, as long as both are co-signers on the credit cards, says Bill Glassner, a financial planner with Glassner Carlton Financial Planning in Cedar Knolls, N.J. "However, if the credit card is in one spouse’s name but the other is just an additional cardholder, that spouse isn’t responsible. " > > One exception is community property states, where both are responsible, even for debt incurred by one partner. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/47 "2010-09-30T21:15:43Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@otternell](#): > > > > And if you got divorced she would not in any way be obligated (morally, or otherwise) to pay for debt which she did not incur. Why should it be different if he died? > > Well, I’m not alone in thinking that this is not right: > > > [@](#): > > > > Debt incurred during a marriage is generally the joint responsibility of both parties, as long as both are co-signers on the credit cards, says Bill Glassner, a financial planner with Glassner Carlton Financial Planning in Cedar Knolls, N.J. "However, if the credit card is in one spouse’s name but the other is just an additional cardholder, that spouse isn’t responsible. " > > > > One exception is community property states, where both are responsible, even for debt incurred by one partner. You seem to be deliberately ignoring your own cite. I’ll quote it again and bold the relevant clause of the sentence: > [@](#): > > Debt incurred during a marriage is generally the joint responsibility of both parties, **as long as both are co-signers on the credit cards** , In the original thread, it was made clear that the widow was NOT a co-signer of the card in question. The credit card’s company dunning of her and attempt to get her to include non-estate funds as part of the estate is vile fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/48 "2010-09-30T21:18:22Z")
And this is where I bow out of both threads. From the other one: > [@Death and Credit Card Debt](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-and-credit-card-debt/555606/74): > > > [@Death and Credit Card Debt](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-and-credit-card-debt/555606/72): > > > > How is it reneging on the debt when the contract specifically allows for it? > > Because morality is a higher law than contract law. You’d have to be either a nitwit or a troll to write this. I’m going to assume you’re the latter and stop feeding you. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/49 "2010-09-30T21:18:25Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@otternell](#): > > > > And if you got divorced she would not in any way be obligated (morally, or otherwise) to pay for debt which she did not incur. Why should it be different if he died? > > Well, I’m not alone in thinking that this is not right: > > > [@](#): > > > > Debt incurred during a marriage is generally the joint responsibility of both parties, \*\*as long as both are co-signers on the credit \*\*cards, says Bill Glassner, a financial planner with Glassner Carlton Financial Planning in Cedar Knolls, N.J. "However, if the credit card is in one spouse’s name but the other is just an additional cardholder, that spouse isn’t responsible. " > > > > One exception is community property states, where both are responsible, even for debt incurred by one partner. See the bolding - that’s the key point here. They’re not both co-signors, therefore they’re not jointly responsible. Even if she had a card as an additional card-holder, she is not responsible. Besides, your cite has nothing to do with morality/ethics, its back to legality, which earlier you were avoiding. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/50 "2010-09-30T21:21:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > Well, I’m not alone in thinking that this is not right: > > You seem to be deliberately ignoring your own cite. I’ll quote it again and bold the relevant clause of the sentence: > > > [@](#): > > > > Debt incurred during a marriage is generally the joint responsibility of both parties, **as long as both are co-signers on the credit cards** , > > In the original thread, it was made clear that the widow was NOT a co-signer of the card in question. The credit card’s company dunning of her and attempt to get her to include non-estate funds as part of the estate is vile fraud. You missed the seconds sentence: > [@](#): > > One exception is community property states, where both are responsible, even for debt incurred by one partner. All I was pointing out is that my position is supported by a number of states. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/51 "2010-09-30T21:23:17Z")
But that’s the LEGAL issue. You already told us to drop the legal issue and to focus on the MORAL issue. Community property states have fuck-all to do with morality/ethics. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/52 "2010-09-30T21:29:13Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > But that’s the LEGAL issue. You already told us to drop the legal issue and to focus on the MORAL issue. Community property states have fuck-all to do with morality/ethics. Well, I don’t think that’s true, if you believe that we live in a society whose laws are guided by morality. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/53 "2010-09-30T21:31:04Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > > Well, they never possessed it in the first place, so I really don’t see how they could repossess it. But the only rights they have are the ones spelled out in the contract, and if it says the debt is unsecured it is unsecured. They have no right to the property. > > Once again, that’s not what I asked. > Do YOU think that the CC company should be able to sell items purchased on credit in order to cover bad debt? When the CC company issued the card, they checked the credit of the holder, and made a decision to do business with that person. Also in that decision was the fact that the card holder would pay considerably more interest than he would had it been a secured (collateral) loan. The CC company traded away the security interest for a higher rate of interest in return. Do you think it’s fair to allow them to collect unsecured interest rates and thereafter repossess the property when a holder dies as they would for a secured loan? ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/54 "2010-09-30T21:34:40Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Dante](#): > > > > Your going to give yourself a hernia moving those goalposts around. > > And you are artful, dodger. Oh goody. The old “I know you are but what am I?”:rolleyes: I think I’m going to follow **Skald** ’s lead. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/55 "2010-09-30T21:38:38Z")
Sharia law is common position shared among a number of nations. Doesn’t make it a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/56 "2010-09-30T21:46:22Z")
Wow - are people really angry that **beowulff** holds that view? Not just that they disagree, but they are really angry about it? I’m no legal expert, but if my wife bought a bunch of stuff on credit and then up and died, I’d feel a moral obligation to pay her debt back if I could. Am I a troll? ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/57 "2010-09-30T22:10:41Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@otternell](#): > > > > But that’s the LEGAL issue. You already told us to drop the legal issue and to focus on the MORAL issue. Community property states have fuck-all to do with morality/ethics. > > Well, I don’t think that’s true, if you believe that we live in a society whose laws are guided by morality. The laws are guided by morality, and in this case, its not a legal issue that she owes the company! My problem with your position is that you have a contract between two entities. You are holding one of them to a higher standard than the other. Screw that. The CC’s are big boys and girls and they can protect themselves. They would not hesitate to destroy her credit if they could get away with it (which fucks her as far as insurance and jobs, because both of those groups do credit checks). ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/58 "2010-09-30T22:13:10Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Well, I don’t think that’s true, if you believe that we live in a society whose laws are guided by morality. You keep ignoring the fact that credit companies already factor in the cost of situations like the OP into their rates. Why should they have it both ways? Why should they be able to lend out money, charge for risk and then not assume risk? FYI, I’ve gotten three calls this month from Bank of America about my BIL’s debts. Anyone who lends him money is a sheer moron. I am not obligated to help them not be idiots. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/59 "2010-09-30T22:17:28Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > Well, I don’t think that’s true, if you believe that we live in a society whose laws are guided by morality. > > You keep ignoring the fact that credit companies already factor in the cost of situations like the OP into their rates. Why should they have it both ways? Why should they be able to lend out money, charge for risk and then not assume risk? > > FYI, I’ve gotten three calls this month from Bank of America about my BIL’s debts. Anyone who lends him money is a sheer moron. I am not obligated to help them not be idiots. I’m not ignoring this. I just think it’s irrelevant. What you are saying is that it’s perfectly moral to throw a brick through someone’s window because they have insurance. What I am saying is: If everyone made their best effort to pay off their debts (and I am including debt incurred as a family unit), then the world would be a much better, less expensive place. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/60 "2010-09-30T22:18:32Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Wow - are people really angry that **beowulff** holds that view? Not just that they disagree, but they are really angry about it? > > I’m no legal expert, but if my wife bought a bunch of stuff on credit and then up and died, I’d feel a moral obligation to pay her debt back if I could. Am I a troll? Key words from your post…_if I could_. Sort of leaving the back door open there aren’t you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=4)