# Dear beowulff: re your remarks in the Life Insurance thread in GQ **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643 "2010-09-30T19:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/61 "2010-09-30T22:27:10Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I’m not ignoring this. > I just think it’s irrelevant. > > What you are saying is that it’s perfectly moral to throw a brick through someone’s window because they have insurance. > > What I am saying is: If everyone made their best effort to pay off their debts (and I am including debt incurred as a family unit), then the world would be a much better, less expensive place. Your analogy makes no sense at all. Why is it irrelevant that the credit card companies charged this man extra to help cover this situation? The credit card companies did not lend this woman’s husband out of the goodness of their hearts. They did so with the intent of earning a profit. In order to do so they took a risk. Essentially they gambled and lost. Why should they be allowed to gamble without the possibility of incurring loss? Especially as part of the price of the gamble is built into the debt. Members of my immediate family make stupid financial decisions all the time. I feel no obligation (nor should I) to reimburse any company dumb enough to lend money under those circumstances. If Bank of America ever calls me again over my idiot BIL’s debts I swear I’ll either get an apology in writing or move all my money from my B of A account. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/62 "2010-09-30T22:40:54Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > I’m not ignoring this. > > I just think it’s irrelevant. > > > > What you are saying is that it’s perfectly moral to throw a brick through someone’s window because they have insurance. > > > > What I am saying is: If everyone made their best effort to pay off their debts (and I am including debt incurred as a family unit), then the world would be a much better, less expensive place. > > Your analogy makes no sense at all. > > Why is it irrelevant that the credit card companies charged this man extra to help cover this situation? > > The credit card companies did not lend this woman’s husband out of the goodness of their hearts. They did so with the intent of earning a profit. In order to do so they took a risk. > > Essentially they gambled and lost. Why should they be allowed to gamble without the possibility of incurring loss? Especially as part of the price of the gamble is built into the debt. > > Members of my immediate family make stupid financial decisions all the time. I feel no obligation (nor should I) to reimburse any company dumb enough to lend money under those circumstances. If Bank of America ever calls me again over my idiot BIL’s debts I swear I’ll either get an apology in writing or move all my money from my B of A account. OK, I don’t know how many different ways I can say this. I don’t give a damn about what the law says. I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family, and therefore that wife has a moral obligation to pay the debt. I don’t care what is in the contract - this is about doing the right thing. I don’t like this “every man for himself” attitude - that somehow the people who **don’t** default on their loans are the chumps. I was taught that if you borrow money, you pay it back. Period. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/63 "2010-09-30T22:47:42Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > OK, I don’t know how many different ways I can say this. > I don’t give a damn about what the law says. > I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family, and therefore that wife has a moral obligation to pay the debt. I don’t care what is in the contract - this is about doing the right thing. > > I don’t like this “every man for himself” attitude - that somehow the people who **don’t** default on their loans are the chumps. I was taught that if you borrow money, you pay it back. Period. Dropping dead is not defaulting on your loan. Why are you letting the credit card company off the hook morally? Do you think that a company should be able to have it both ways? First they charge extra for a risk. Then they state that if they actually incur the damned risk they’re charging for they shouldn’t be on the hook for said risk. How is that moral? Why should the wife reimburse the company for a risk they voluntarily took on and charged her husband to cover? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/64 "2010-09-30T22:49:19Z")
Unless you’re dead, in which case you can’t. But that doesn’t suddenly impose a financial burden on others. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/65 "2010-09-30T22:51:17Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > OK, I don’t know how many different ways I can say this. > > I don’t give a damn about what the law says. > > I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family, and therefore that wife has a moral obligation to pay the debt. I don’t care what is in the contract - this is about doing the right thing. > > > > I don’t like this “every man for himself” attitude - that somehow the people who **don’t** default on their loans are the chumps. I was taught that if you borrow money, you pay it back. Period. > > Dropping dead is not defaulting on your loan. > > Why are you letting the credit card company off the hook morally? Do you think that a company should be able to have it both ways? First they charge extra for a risk. Then they state that if they actually incur the damned risk they’re charging for they shouldn’t be on the hook for said risk. > > How is that moral? Why should the wife reimburse the company for a risk they voluntarily took on and charged her husband to cover? _sigh_ As I said before, this has nothing to do with the credit card company. Would you feel differently about this if the money was owed to a friend? A relative? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/66 "2010-09-30T22:52:59Z")
Would you feel differently about this if the dead man wasn’t married? Who would be morally obligated to cover his “debt” then? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/67 "2010-09-30T22:58:46Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Would you feel differently about this if the dead man wasn’t married? Who would be morally obligated to cover his “debt” then? Of course. The entire issue is the fact that he was married. If he is single when he dies, in most casesI don’t think it’s reasonable for another party to feel morally obligated to cover his debts. There are certainly situations where that may be less clear-cut. For example, a single child living at home, using his credit card to provide for his parents. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/68 "2010-09-30T23:06:35Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family And you know this how? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/69 "2010-09-30T23:18:12Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Well, I don’t think that’s true, if you believe that we live in a society whose laws are guided by morality. Based on? C’mon, you know, that’s right … [a contract](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract)! > [@Death and Credit Card Debt](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/death-and-credit-card-debt/555606/74): > > Because morality is a higher law than contract law. Aww sounds like someone has a skull full of mush and needs to read/watch _The Paper Chase_. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/70 "2010-09-30T23:24:23Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family > > And you know this how? Because I’m married. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/71 "2010-09-30T23:38:30Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Flyhalf](#): > > > > And you know this how? > > Because I’m married. So then you don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/72 "2010-09-30T23:56:32Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > Because I’m married. > > So then you don’t know. It doesn’t fucking matter - If he used the credit card to buy time with crack whores that left him extra cash to spend on his family. That is what’s called [fungibility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/73 "2010-10-01T00:50:02Z")
Anyone else reminded of that “fake divorce” thread? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/74 "2010-10-01T05:26:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Anyone else reminded of that “fake divorce” thread? Which one was that? BTW, **beowulff** , does this include identify theft – or if someone gets a hold of your credit card and racks up a bunch of charges? After all, it’s your MORAL obligation to pay them off! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/75 "2010-10-01T05:50:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Anyone else reminded of that “fake divorce” thread? > > Which one was that? [Oh, it was a classic.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307704) Someone was in a situation where her husband could get Medicare to help with his numerous health problems if he was destitute, which he would be if the asker divorced him, even though she loved him and (I gather) they’d continue living as if married. The divorce would simply be to satisfy a governmental means test. Staying together (legally) would eventually bankrupt them. mattmorgan64 took great umbrage. He was dogpiled in much the same way wulff is now, with his repeated claims that the asker was immoral and everyone who sympathized was equally immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/76 "2010-10-01T06:02:59Z")
Oh, I remember that one. What an asshole. (The guy who pitted them, that is. The situation struck me as being a horrible example of just how fucked up our health care system is. I hope things are working out for said couple.) Topic? **beowulff** is a turdwaffle. ---
**Author:** ![miamouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@miamouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miamouse)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/77 "2010-10-01T10:55:16Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Flyhalf](#): > > > > So then you don’t know. > > It doesn’t fucking matter - If he used the credit card to buy time with crack whores that left him extra cash to spend on his family. That is what’s called [fungibility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility). so by your reasoning, she should pay for his crack whoring around, instead of a new winter coat for the kid… because it’s morally ethical, with the added bonus that she’ll sleep better at night. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/78 "2010-10-01T13:23:24Z")
I agree with the majority. If the CC company was to expect the widow to be responsible for the debt, then they shouldn’t have been charging whatever rate they were on the account, because presumably this rate included a few extra points to cover this risk. However I am not getting the outrage for beowulffs position, what he is essentially saying is if everyone behaved as he wished, all the cc companies would charge less interest because their risk was lower. Of course I don’t believe that for a second. They will charge what they can get away with… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/79 "2010-10-01T14:01:59Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > However I am not getting the outrage for beowulffs position, what he is essentially saying is if everyone behaved as he wished, all the cc companies would charge less interest because their risk was lower. It’s not outrage. It’s a complete lack of comprehension as to how any human adult can be so monumentally stupid. If everyone cleared their own plates at expensive restaurants, the food would be cheaper because they wouldn’t have to hire so many bus boys. Does that mean I have a moral obligation to clean up my table every time I go to Emeril’s? Not bloody likely. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/80 "2010-10-01T14:06:05Z")
Just dropped by to say that beowulf’s an idiot. Toodles… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=5)