# Dear beowulff: re your remarks in the Life Insurance thread in GQ **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643 "2010-09-30T19:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/81 "2010-10-01T14:22:23Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > OK, I don’t know how many different ways I can say this. > I don’t give a damn about what the law says. > I maintain that the Husband used his credit card in support of the family, and therefore that wife has a moral obligation to pay the debt. I don’t care what is in the contract - this is about doing the right thing. You’ve said this a couple of dozen times in two threads, and in every case, a majority of posters disagree with your opinion. You can repeat this another few times and see if everyone magically comes round to your view, but seems to me the chances of this happening are not high. What, therefore, is your point in expressing the same discredited opinion over and over again? Meanwhile, like most people I do give a damn what the law says. The law helps prevent injustices from occurring due to persons applying rules arbitrarily, based on possibly erroneous personal opinions. You have no basis on which to assume that the credit card was used in support of the family. That is purely your opinion, and is not supported by any facts that have been presented in the relevant threads. > [@](#): > > I don’t like this “every man for himself” attitude - that somehow the people who **don’t** default on their loans are the chumps. I was taught that if you borrow money, you pay it back. Period. I was taught that if you only have one thing to say, you should probably shut the fuck up once you’ve said it. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/82 "2010-10-01T14:32:15Z")
Ah, another poster getting wrapped around their axle because other people won’t do something the poster feels they have a moral obligation to do. Maybe one day people will realize that all this “moral obligation” talk is completely meaningless, but it looks like it’ll be a good long wait until then. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/83 "2010-10-01T14:36:50Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > I agree with the majority. If the CC company was to expect the widow to be responsible for the debt, then they shouldn’t have been charging whatever rate they were on the account, because presumably this rate included a few extra points to cover this risk. > > However I am not getting the outrage for beowulffs position, what he is essentially saying is if everyone behaved as he wished, all the cc companies would charge less interest because their risk was lower. > > Of course I don’t believe that for a second. They will charge what they can get away with… I pitted **beowulff** not for his/her position, but for his/her continual goal posting and deliberate obtuseness. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/84 "2010-10-01T16:13:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ah, another poster getting wrapped around their axle because other people won’t do something the poster feels they have a moral obligation to do. Maybe one day people will realize that all this “moral obligation” talk is completely meaningless, but it looks like it’ll be a good long wait until then. Meh. If he (and you) learned the phrase “we’ll have to agree to disagree”, he (and you) wouldn’t get any negative attention at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/85 "2010-10-01T16:14:02Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You keep ignoring the fact that credit companies already factor in the cost of situations like the OP into their rates. And department stores factor in the cost of their losses from shoplifters into their prices. But stealing is still morally wrong. > [@bup](#): > > I’m no legal expert, but if my wife bought a bunch of stuff on credit and then up and died, I’d feel a moral obligation to pay her debt back if I could. Am I a troll? If I am reading **Skald** correctly, anyone who argues that there is a higher duty to morality than simply what the law says is a nitwit or a troll. Can’t say I agree with him, but there you are. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/86 "2010-10-01T16:14:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > > > I agree with the majority. If the CC company was to expect the widow to be responsible for the debt, then they shouldn’t have been charging whatever rate they were on the account, because presumably this rate included a few extra points to cover this risk. > > > > However I am not getting the outrage for beowulffs position, what he is essentially saying is if everyone behaved as he wished, all the cc companies would charge less interest because their risk was lower. > > > > Of course I don’t believe that for a second. They will charge what they can get away with… > > I pitted **beowulff** not for his/her position, but for his/her continual **goal posting** and deliberate obtuseness. :smack: Goalpost _moving_, rather. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/87 "2010-10-01T16:16:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I pitted **beowulff** not for his/her position, but for his/her continual **goal posting** and deliberate obtuseness. > > :smack: > > Goal _moving_, rather. Goal_post_ moving would be better, still. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/88 "2010-10-01T16:16:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > > You keep ignoring the fact that credit companies already factor in the cost of situations like the OP into their rates. > > And department stores factor in the cost of their losses from shoplifters into their prices. But stealing is still morally wrong. > > > [@bup](#): > > > > I’m no legal expert, but if my wife bought a bunch of stuff on credit and then up and died, I’d feel a moral obligation to pay her debt back if I could. Am I a troll? > > If I am reading **Skald** correctly, anyone who argues that there is a higher duty to morality than simply what the law says is a nitwit or a troll. > > Can’t say I agree with him, but there you are. > > Regards, > Shodan I can think of plenty of occasions in which a moral person has the obligation to disobey the law. I generally follow the dictates of the law but for pragmatic reasons, not principled ones. ETA: **Shodan** , I didn’t pit **beowulff** over the difference of opinion, but rather for the obtuseness he/she displayed in ignoring multiple reasoned refutations of his arguments. It was as if he were arguing that the Christian canon includes the Gospel of Thomas and would not listen to people who showed much evidence otherwise. Keep it up long enough and you convince me that you’re just stirring up shit. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > :smack: > > > > Goal _moving_, rather. > > Goal_post_ moving would be better, still. The usual threats for typing faster than me. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/89 "2010-10-01T16:22:32Z")
So we’re comparing someone who dies and has debts that die with him LEGALLY to someone who deliberately steals things? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/90 "2010-10-01T16:22:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ah, another poster getting wrapped around their axle because other people won’t do something the poster feels they have a moral obligation to do. Maybe one day people will realize that all this “moral obligation” talk is completely meaningless, but it looks like it’ll be a good long wait until then. No one is claiming that **beowulff** has any obligation other than to argue honestly. People got irritated because of his repeated claims that the credit card company should be allowed to disregard the term of its own contract out of “morality.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/91 "2010-10-01T16:36:32Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > So we’re comparing someone who dies and has debts that die with him LEGALLY to someone who deliberately steals things? > > Huh? IOKIARD. It’s okay if a Republican dies. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/92 "2010-10-01T16:48:33Z")
All this is because \*\*beowulff \*\*thinks that retarded, antiquated, sexist system known as Community of Property is actually the more moral and right way of regarding a marriage. No, marriages shouldn’t reduce individual adults to dependants, and there’s \*nothing \*wrong with a system that treats each individual as just that - an individual with their own property and responsibilities. Not a subordinate unit of The Hive. Married people are not Zerg. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/93 "2010-10-01T17:20:36Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Flyhalf](#): > > > > So then you don’t know. > > It doesn’t fucking matter - If he used the credit card to buy time with crack whores that left him extra cash to spend on his family. That is what’s called [fungibility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility). So we agree that you don’t know. Do you have any idea just how fucking stupid you are? Probably not so let me help you. YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID! YOU SHOULD PUNCH YOURSELF IN THE FACE AND APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE HERE FOR OFFENDING US WITH YOUR PRESENCE! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/94 "2010-10-01T17:22:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > So we’re comparing someone who dies and has debts that die with him LEGALLY to someone who deliberately steals things? > > Huh? In post #84 of the other thread, **beo** referred to someone running up CC debt and then “conveniently” dying. Nice. I suppose he would say that it was convenient for my mother that she died of a brain tumor a couple years ago. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/95 "2010-10-01T17:25:43Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > > Dropping dead is not defaulting on your loan. > > > > Why are you letting the credit card company off the hook morally? Do you think that a company should be able to have it both ways? First they charge extra for a risk. Then they state that if they actually incur the damned risk they’re charging for they shouldn’t be on the hook for said risk. > > > > How is that moral? Why should the wife reimburse the company for a risk they voluntarily took on and charged her husband to cover? > > _sigh_ > As I said before, this has nothing to do with the credit card company. > Would you feel differently about this if the money was owed to a friend? A relative? Entirely different set of factors would be in play. Not least of which are the assumptions held by both parties to the loan, and the likelihood of an individual being a close enough friend to loan someone money, and at the same time a big enough prick to dun the widow. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/96 "2010-10-01T17:31:49Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I’m more irritated at all the posters who think that it’s somehow OK to renege on debt that was incurred when married. I **f I get divorced, my wife can potentially receive a percentage of my future earnings.** I don’t see why people don’t think that the converse is reasonable - that she should be responsible for a portion of my current debt. _(Emphasis added)_ This is what’s really got your knickers in a twist, isn’t it? Not that CP is a moral stance, but that it isn’t and you’re stuck by circumstances in the inherent unfairness of it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/97 "2010-10-01T18:27:01Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > > Dropping dead is not defaulting on your loan. > > > > Why are you letting the credit card company off the hook morally? Do you think that a company should be able to have it both ways? First they charge extra for a risk. Then they state that if they actually incur the damned risk they’re charging for they shouldn’t be on the hook for said risk. > > > > How is that moral? Why should the wife reimburse the company for a risk they voluntarily took on and charged her husband to cover? > > _sigh_ > As I said before, this has nothing to do with the credit card company. > _ **Would you feel differently about this if the money was owed to a friend? A relative?** _ (emphasis added) I think that’s a fair question that I haven’t seen an answer to. Any **beowulff** haters want to take it? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/98 "2010-10-01T18:36:46Z")
I wouldn’t call myself a **beowulff** hater, _per se_, although I haven’t been particularly impressed with him, but hey, [thanks for making me feel like chopped liver.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12977593&postcount=95) 😃 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/99 "2010-10-01T18:42:24Z")
> [@bup](#): > > > [@beowulff](#): > > > > _sigh_ > > As I said before, this has nothing to do with the credit card company. > > _ **Would you feel differently about this if the money was owed to a friend? A relative?** _ > > (emphasis added) > > I think that’s a fair question that I haven’t seen an answer to. Any **beowulff** haters want to take it? If a relative or friend died while owing me money, leaving an impoverished widow and child, I would not only not attempt to dun the widow but would refuse any attempt at repayment. It’s part of my whole “Don’t be a jackass” thing. eta: I also do not hate **beowulff**. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643/100 "2010-10-01T18:45:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, I remember that one. What an asshole. (The guy who pitted them, that is. The situation struck me as being a horrible example of just how fucked up our health care system is. I hope things are working out for said couple.) > Topic? **beowulff** is a turdwaffle. Really weird. She has a total of 42 posts, and her latest one was in that thread in March of 2005. But her profile page says her last activity on the Dope was this past August. So I guess she’s been lurking. I hope we’ve been entertaining her. And that their financial situation has become a bit more tenable during the past five and a half years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-beowulff-re-your-remarks-in-the-life-insurance-thread-in-gq/555643.md?page=6)