# Dear Cecil Adams--Lunar Rovers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243 "2011-12-14T22:51:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/1 "2011-12-14T22:51:30Z")
I write to the Grand Celestial Master of the SDMB in the belief that no lesser Doper could answer this correctly. America left several Lunar Rover electric automobiles on the Moon, after the Apollo Program ended. What would be their current value, resale, as used cars? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/2 "2011-12-14T22:57:48Z")
If you factor in the retrieval costs, something like negative ten billion dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/3 "2011-12-14T23:27:40Z")
They were engineered to work in the lunar gravity, so the safe loads and suspension design won’t be exactly happy in Earth’s gravity. They were fit for purpose as a lunar rover. You probably need to work out the business case of setting up a used car lot on the moon. Not a lot of customers, so the price will be pretty low. As a device for driving about on the Earth’s surface, it won’t work, so its value is very low. If you had a car lot full of them, you would be selling them for scrap. Reasonably valuable scrap, with some nice metals to recover. But as a car, zero. Recovered by some miracle (perhaps an alien passing by drops one off as a joke) the value would be difficult. NASA will claim ownership - so it will be illegal to sell it. So the value is zero. As a black market item, sold to a very rich collector, probably tens of millions. Still way short of what they cost. There are a couple left that never flew, so it would not be unique, but as an item that actually drove of the lunar surface, that increases perceived value immensely. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/4 "2011-12-14T23:33:36Z")
Technically, they’re golf carts, not cars. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/5 "2011-12-15T03:01:46Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > What would be their current value, resale, as used cars? They would no more be ‘used cars’ than any other significant, non-automobile piece of Apollo hardware. If technology was to the point where any of the large stuff left on the Moon could be brought back, and if NASA (i.e. the US Govt) was ok with it being taken & sold, it would certainly be an ultimate collectable to some rich guy. But like I said, it would never have anything to do with the ‘used car’ market as it doesn’t belong to that group in any way, shape or form. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/6 "2011-12-15T07:16:06Z")
In the scenario where kindly aliens retrieve it, how sound a claim could NASA make on it? It’s been abandoned for half a century - does NASA still legally own it? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/7 "2011-12-15T12:16:32Z")
Arguably the golf cart was the “rickshaw” or Modular Equipment Transporter. This is because it was Alan Shepard that drove the golf balls on the moon, and that mission was Apollo 14, the only one which used the Modular Equipment Transporter. The (later) missions carrying the rovers were sadly devoid of golf. From a technical point of view, there is not much doubt about a common thread between golf carts and the rovers. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/8 "2011-12-15T14:06:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > In the scenario where kindly aliens retrieve it, how sound a claim could NASA make on it? It’s been abandoned for half a century - does NASA still legally own it? Article VIII of the [1967 Outer Space Treaty:](http://www.state.gov/www/global/arms/treaties/space1.html) > [@](#): > > A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return. In other words, stuff that the U.S. launches into space belongs to the U.S. permanently. From what I’ve been able to gather, there isn’t (yet) a corpus of “space salvage” law like there is for marine salvage. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/9 "2011-12-15T14:36:58Z")
Thanks. I guess I’ll have to hand it back if the aliens deliver it to my garden. (Assuming that the UK recognises this treaty…) ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/10 "2011-12-15T15:53:32Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > They were engineered to work in the lunar gravity, so the safe loads and suspension design won’t be exactly happy in Earth’s gravity. IIRC, they work fine back on Earth, I think I remember seeing a TV presenter driving one. There were a few test models built before the rovers that went to the moon, and they are kicking around in various museums. Edit - there is a video at the bottom of the [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Roving_Vehicle) of one being driven on Earth, while the astronauts were training. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/11 "2011-12-15T17:19:42Z")
Hmm, do they have VIN numbers? Wikipedia says (with a referenced cite) they were made by GM. Does that mean that the lunar rovers are Chevys? ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/12 "2011-12-15T17:45:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thanks. I guess I’ll have to hand it back if the aliens deliver it to my garden. (Assuming that the UK recognises this treaty…) The UK was one of the first signatories, along with the U.S. and the USSR, so you’re out of luck there. I suppose you can always demand that the U.S. “furnish identifying data prior to their return.” To cover your bases there, you should probably post some flyers or something reading “FOUND: one lunar rover. Call 555-1212 with description for return.” Wouldn’t want it to end up in the wrong hands, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/13 "2011-12-15T18:16:59Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > IIRC, they work fine back on Earth, I think I remember seeing a TV presenter driving one. There were a few test models built before the rovers that went to the moon, and they are kicking around in various museums. > > Edit - there is a video at the bottom of the [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Roving_Vehicle) of one being driven on Earth, while the astronauts were training. There was indeed a training rover, it was designed to imitate the real thing under Earth gravity. For instance, the Earth-bound model had rubber tires, and the ones that actually flew had wire-mesh wheels. I suppose the frame, suspension, etc. were also different for the training rover, which didn’t need to be as lightweight and to fold like a handkerchief. Quoth [NASA](http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_lrv.html): > [@](#): > > _[Apart from the unflown units for cancelled Apollo flights,]_ There were other LRV models built: a static model to assist with human factors design, an engineering model to design and integrate the subsystems, two 1/6 gravity models for testing the deployment mechanism, a 1-gravity trainer to give the astronauts instruction in the operation of the rover and allow them to practice driving it, a mass model to test the effect of the rover on the LM structure, balance and handling, a vibration test unit to study the LRV’s durability and handling of launch stresses, and a qualification test unit to study integration of all LRV subsystems. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/14 "2011-12-15T20:22:28Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > There was indeed a training rover, it was designed to imitate the real thing under Earth gravity. For instance, the Earth-bound model had rubber tires, and the ones that actually flew had wire-mesh wheels. I suppose the frame, suspension, etc. were also different for the training rover, which didn’t need to be as lightweight and to fold like a handkerchief. Thanks, that’s probably what I saw on TV. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/15 "2011-12-15T21:35:09Z")
And yet, neither a dollar figure, nor a weigh-in from The Great One. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/16 "2011-12-15T22:12:58Z")
Perhaps he is awaiting a quote from alien civilizations who could recover and deliver it. Since even Cecil’s communication is limited to light speed, it could be some time… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/17 "2011-12-15T22:20:35Z")
Surely these wouldn’t be ‘used cars’ anyway - they’d be vintage motors. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/18 "2011-12-16T15:12:38Z")
Not to hijack, but why would you want to sell it as a used car? That would be like recovering the Ark of the Covenant and asking how much you could get for the melt value of the gold in it. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/19 "2011-12-16T16:02:07Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Recovered by some miracle (perhaps an alien passing by drops one off as a joke) the value would be difficult. NASA will claim ownership - so it will be illegal to sell it. That won’t last long, as I believe that a very compelling case can be made that NASA abandoned them, and as such they are subject to salvage by anybody who comes along. A legally recognized form of “finders, keepers”. I agree with others that their value as vehicles is basically nil, as is their value as recyclable material, so their only value is going to be as collector’s items, in which case they should be worth quite a lot indeed, due to their initial scarcity and the difficulty in obtaining them. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243/20 "2011-12-16T17:44:36Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > That won’t last long, as I believe that a very compelling case can be made that NASA abandoned them, and as such they are subject to salvage by anybody who comes along. > A legally recognized form of “finders, keepers”. Do you have a concrete reason why you think the international treaty **MikeS** referenced would not be upheld? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cecil-adams-lunar-rovers/606243.md?page=2)