My boyfriend is one month older then me, and were unofficially together when I was 17, and became official 4 days after my 18 birthday. Had the age of concent here been 18 there wouln’t have been a problem when I was 17 and he was 18. Because it was/is what people would consider a ‘normal’ relationship. So the police would never have gotten involved, as they wouldn’t have known because no one would have reported it. The age of concent laws are there to protect those who need protecting.
This guy does seem to have the emotional maturity of a teenager. The girl is probably too mature for him.
I agree that there’s no sense in trying to defend an absolute rule prohibiting romantic contact between a 22-year-old guy and a 16-year-old girl, though it’s probably not a good idea four times out of five; there are certainly exceptions. (Well, outside Machetero’s peculiarly phallic ivory tower, of course.) That said, this guy is making an ass of himself for other reasons.
Absolutely. Tops on my list would be telling him that this girl is too old for him. If he really wants to prove his manhood, he should shave a couple of years off his target demographic. Go to your local department store and buy a photo frame with one of those sample pictures in it, one with like a twelve or thirteen year old girl. Give it to him and ask him if he thinks she’s hot: “Because I know her. Name’s Courtney. I went to school with her mom. I can set you up, if you want.”
Yonkeroo beat me to it while I was composing. Bastard.
You don’t hang around the right people. ¬__¬
It was not too long ago that I was 16 and a good deal of my friends just recently turned 17-18. Several of my friends had relationships with people in their late 20s and early 30s when they were in their teens. In almost all of the relationships, my young friends were the ones in charge.
My friend Tyr, who lost his virginity to an older, married woman in her 30s at the tender age of 16 looks back on it with pride and fondness. He had several other similar relationships and he delights in telling us about them.
My friend Moses liked being with older guys and he sleeped with quite a few of them after he turned about 17. One was his gym teacher, which I thought was inappropriate, but he viewed it as a conquest. He had his broken by one guy, but that guy was the exception and was only a few years older than Moses himself.
My friend Nicole again liked to date older guys. Again, she was quite manipulative and ending up breaking more than a few hearts.
My friend Shiki is extremely mature and began dating a 36 at 18. The 36 year-old had a daughter Shiki’s age. Again, Shiki was probably the most mature one in that relationship.
My friend Rachel likes dating younger men. She at 25 dated a boy who was in high school. She hasn’t had many guys turn down her offers.
And in my own experience, I prefer dating younger guys, but I have given older guys a chance. I dated several guys more than 10 years older than me. In all of those cases, it was I who dumped them. You would think that men would develop maturity by the time they hit their 30s but I’ve known far too many men who haven’t.
The guy mentioned in the OP is a jerk and needs talking to.
My goodness, you’re right! I’m going to go break up with my SO right now. How stupid I was not to see that I’ve been exploited all these years!
Here is another example of why I get confused when people make a big deal out of things. I have several teenaged daughters. The first time a guy says anything that could be remotely misconstrued I tell him I will kill him if I ever see him within ten feet of any of my daughters. Problem solved.
This is the method used by parents for millenia. The guy doesn’t have to believe you would kill him for THAT minor an infraction. All he needs to know is that he has passed a limit that he should not pass again and most guys will respect it. If they don’t and you are too small to make an effective threat (though Sam Colt equalized women, too) say your husband, boyfriend, brother, co-worker, or psycho biker neighbor is itching to make good on it. Only the truly insane will push it beyond that and then you can call the cops. Or your husband, boyfriend, brother, co-worker, or psycho biker neighbor. You can always find someone happy to help out in a situation like this.
Where are you drawing the line here? If I said one of your daughters was hot, would you threaten to kill me? 'Cause I’d be pissed, and you’d know it.
Forgive me if someone has already asked, but what does the 16 yo girl’s mother have to say about it? If she is okay with it, then I don’t see how it could possibly be a concern of anybody else’s.
When I was 23 I had a 17YO girlfriend. Interestingly, her dad was reasonably okay with it, but her stepmother was up in arms over it. She never said anything to me, but she was all over my girlfriend, threatening to have me arrested, etc. She actually went throuh my girlfriend’s purse and found her birth control pills. When she confronted my girlfriend, the stepmother lied and claimed that her friends who worked at Family Planning (the stepmother was a nurse) had informed her. Of course, the stepmother was a psycho control freak who for some reason did not have custody of her own children. Anyway, my girlfriend ended that relationship, which lasted about 18 months.
Now, I’m 37, and I’m in love with a 20YO woman who first caught my eye when she was 16. In this case, though, I’ve never acted on those feelings, simply because I think the age difference would “freak her out” if she knew how I felt. Although, I’ve had reason to suspect that she had a similar interest in me, at least for a while. We’ve gotten to be pretty friendly with each other over the last 4+ years, and she has said a number of things that led me to think she might be interested (for example, on three separate occasions, the first when she was 17, she has mentioned to me that she has never been kissed. The context in which she said it each time really made it sound like a hint). But the biggest clue was when she finally found out how old I am. This was just last August, and my age happened to come up in our conversation. Her reaction was, “You’re seventeen years older than me!!!” She was very surprised, and seemed to be embarassed. Ever since then, she’s been a bit more reserved around me, though we’re still good friends. It seems to me that her reaction to learning my age was too dramatic to simply indicate that she had thought I was younger.
Anyway, my feelings on the subject should be obvious 
As long as nobody is being taken advantage of, I don’t see any problem. I feel that Western culture, specifically American culture, has taken what used to be considered “adult” and legislated those former adults into children, thereby artificially turning natural human drives into forbidden behavior.
However, I agree that the behavior of the 22YO described by the OP is out of line and inappropriate. Not because of the age difference, but because he is disrespecting the young lady by making an object of her, and disrespecting the people around him by making them listen to him.
BTW - Here in Washington, 16 is the age of consent. A 16YO could sleep with a 50YO if he/she so desired. The only time such contact would be illegal would be if the older person was in a position of authority over the younger. For example, an employer, teacher or coach, because of the chance that the “authority” figure is using his/her position to coerce the younger person.
The “four years older” range only applies when the younger party is 14 or 15 years old. I assume this is to prevent a situation where, say, a 17YO high school senior is sleeping with his 14YO freshman girlfriend, and the girl’s father wants the guy arrested on his 18th birthday.
The previous two paragraphs assume, of course, consensual relationships.
I have nothing really substantial to add, other than to tell gobear that I, like Lynn, got my first period at age 10. I’d gotten my first training bra at age nine. I had no idea why this was happening to me and didn’t have the mental maturity to understand the process of puberty. I know you’ve already acknowledged the difference between the onset of menses and readiness to bear children, gobear, but I just wanted to make the point that it’s not that uncommon. Early Onset Puberty is a growing problem now, but even in the late '80s it wasn’t that unusual.
Lynn, you have my empathy and my chocolate.
As to the OP, I agree that the office jerk is out of line. Courtship and dating are one thing. Merely wanting to get into her low-rise pants is another.
As to the age issue, I have to go with those against. It’s just a question of emotional maturity and power. Most people in their twenties are self-sufficient, relatively world-wise, and able to handle the emotional baggage and physical consequences of sex. Most 16-year-olds aren’t. Therein lies the difference. Of course there are always exceptions, but generally that’s the case.
So which is the deciding factor then, age or maturity? Physical or emotional?
You say “most” people in their 20 are mature enough, but that implies that some aren’t and maybe should be held back from having a relationship at all. Likewise, you say that “most” 16 year olds aren’t mature enough(physically or emotionally?), to be able to handle a relationship…
Does that imply that a mature 16 year old could conceivably have a relationship with a more immature 20 year old and it would be ok?
Just wondering. I have no stake in this argument(I like adult women), but I see holes in some peoples’ justifications for why it is “wrong”.
Sam
I agree with those that say that the problem with the 22/16 age difference isn’t necessarily the amorphous quality of “maturity,” but that the parties are usually at different life stages and that there is likely to be a significant power imbalance. I think many guys who pursue teenage girls are looking to exploit that power imbalance, whether consciously or unconsciously.
FWIW, I was dating a 23 year old when I was 17, and it was great. Life stages? I was a senior in high school and he was a total slacker. No problem there. Power imbalance? Heck, I was the one with a car and I made more money at my part-time job than he did. No problem there, either. And my parents did like him. He was a great fun guy, and I think they were happy that I had someone to entertain me until I left for college.
Good lord! A 22 year old dating a 16 year old I can live with. A 21 year old dating a 9 year old? That’s just not right!
This reminds me of an example of the Sorites paradox that a philosophy professor gave me once.
A man and a woman meet in a park on their mutual 18th birthday. He says to her, “I’ll give you a candy bar if you’ll come back to my apartment and let me have my way with you.” She says, “Yes, that sounds like a fair deal. Let’s go.”
I think that most people would find this a bit odd, but since they are both consenting adults, there’s no real room for outrage.
Now repeat the scenario, only she’s a day under 18, and he’s a day over. Again, it’s a bit odd, but generally not illegal, and hard to get upset about. I think most people would agree that the one day taken from her age and added to his doesn’t make his actions wrong.
Keep adding a day to his age and subtracting a day from hers, and eventually you’ll end up with a man in his late 20s attempting to seduce a child under 10. That’s wrong, that’s illegal, and he’s gonna get lynched if anyone sees.
The question: if the original scenario was acceptable, and moving a day from her age to his doesn’t make the scenario unacceptable, how can we agree that the limit case is unacceptable?
What this goes to show is that, at least in this case, the acceptability of the situation is not either completely acceptable or completely unacceptable. There are shades of gray in there.
Talk about contortions of the categorical imperative.
I don’t think that’s the implication at all. I said that most twentysomethings are more mature than most 16-year-olds, that is all. Never did I imply that those that aren’t should be barred from having any relationships. If you saw that in my post, please point out where you saw it.
Indeed, some twentysomethings, the OP’s co-worker included, are not as mature as others. But that is only another reason not to engage in a sexual relationship with a 16-year-old, as they do not have the maturity to handle the relationship responsibly. They would not be concerned about birth control, the feelings of the other person, and so on. Likewise, a 16-year-old who is remarkably mature for his or her age is not neccesarily equipped for a relationship with a twentysomething. She or he is legally dependent on his or her parents, often not able to earn a living on his or her own, and is in danger of not completing her education if the relationship results in an unwanted pregnancy.
Again, there is no such implication. As I pointed out, the immature male would most likely not be concerned about birth control. Nor would he be particularly concerned about the girl’s feelings. As mature as the girl would be, heartbreak and perhaps unwanted pregnancy would result.
As I pointed out in my original post, (but you seem to have chosen to ignore) there are always exceptions. My great-grandmother married when she was 16 and had a long and happy marriage with her husband. I am not in wholesale disagreement with you. But more often than not, such relationships have overwhelming potential to end badly.
I don’t see any holes in my justification at all.
hey, fuck you, Otto. Can’t you read a joke as a joke?
I would think my normal recorded stance on proper treatment of gays would’ve clued you in to the fact that it’s a joke. If you didn’t know that about me (which is possible), all you had to do was ask.
Now, shake my hand and stop being an uptight fuckwad, okay?
Wait, the sixteen year old is a gay dog?
Signifying nothing:
My sister was a precocius brainiac, and thus started college shortly after her 16th birthday. This was a local college, so she still lived at home, which was in Miami in those days. One day in the middle of her first term, she came home and told Mom: “Mr. Smith is in love with me.”
Mom asks: “Who is Mr. Smith?”
Turns out Mr. Smith was her 32 year-old sociology professor. :eek: She finished Mr. Smith’s class in December (got an “A” under Mr. Smith of course. Pun intended) and they were married two months later. The marriage lasted 22 years and they raised two good sons before the wheels came off, so that would have to be called a success, as marriages go.
It can happen, but Mr. Smith wasn’t a jerk like the guy mentioned in the OP.
Yeah, man- he’s one of us. One of the people on your side, I mean, not gay. I’m not gay either. Alright, so he isn’t one of us at all, but he’s one of the people you should get less pissed off at when he says something that offends you. He’s one of the good guys. Yeah, that works.
machetero, you’re a jackass. I’m 21 and I wouldn’t go near a 16-year-old girl, but that’s because they are almost without exception fixated on things that I couldn’t give a rat’s arse about. Suggesting that somebody who would is a sick freak is dumb. In any case, I’ve seen a lot of those relationships, and most of the time the younger girl has the older guy wrapped around her little finger. Not to disparage anyone in this thread who has or had a balanced, functional relationship of this kind, but a lot of the guys my age and above (can’t speak for ze ladies) who date teenagers do it because they can’t get a girl their age.
The guy mentioned in the OP needs a swift kick in the nuts, but because he says this stuff in front of her mother, not because she’s 16.
<tasteless joke alert>Oh, and dropzone, I swear it was her that came on to me. Please ask your goons to put down the baseball bats; I’m a hemophiliac. <tasteless joke over>