# Dear Customer, I'm sorry the term tax included is so confusing for you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977 "2014-02-10T15:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/41 "2014-02-11T01:22:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > and how much would it be if you keep the strings? šŸ˜ƒ very good. i wonder if he would have been pissed if I started suggesting stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/42 "2014-02-11T01:26:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The puns are getting appalling. > This thread needs less pall. and more of the other apostles ā€¦but only the ones in the band. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/43 "2014-02-11T01:48:37Z")
He came in again , looking for the original salesman still thinking he was right. He said he was a little upset and I was a little too much in his face. I reminded him that I actually called the original salesman who verified what I was telliong him. Maybe he thinks I was making that up. I do wonder if some posters here may be right that this is just this guys wear down haggling technique. I get pretty stubborn when I offer someone a good deal and they still try to take up my time haggling. Iā€™ve dealt with the nag technique a few times and it pisses me off. Iā€™ve told a few customers if their next words arenā€™t ā€œIā€™ll take itā€ then the price starts going up. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/44 "2014-02-11T01:51:00Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Iā€™m actually a little annoyed at the OP. This customer walks into the shop, and they settle on a price for him to come back the next day with his trade in. He comes back and the price isnā€™t what he was told. He hesitates because he feels like heā€™s been lied to and waits another couple of days. The third time he walks in a different guy gives him yet a third answer. Fucking hell, this guitar shop is worse than my cable company. > > The OP is pitting the customer for the OPā€™s failure to offer an understandable price structure. What a load of shit this is. The price structure was clearly marked and very understandable had HE, THE CUSTOMER, not tried to haggle an even lower price. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/45 "2014-02-11T01:55:20Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Huh? > > No, he didnā€™t. > > The guitar heā€™s trading is, according to the OP, worth $350. That $350 is part of the price he is paying for the guitar. The fact that heā€™s giving the store $350 worth of guitar instead of $350 worth of money does not mean that heā€™s getting a $900 guitar for $460. > > By your logic, if i trade a five-year-old BMW worth $25,000 in an even swap for a new VW Jetta worth $25,000, i have received a free car. Youā€™re correct, but he was getting a better deal than most. We normally will negotiate a cash price or take a trade in off the tagged price, but not both. This guy was offered both. 10% off the tag and a trade in value. THEN the salesman went one step too far and offered to eat the tax, which also comes off the stores bottom line, and he still wanted a better deal. Itā€™s fine to make an offer and say, hereā€™s how much Iā€™m willing, or can afford to pay for this guitar. If we canā€™t do it, then we canā€™t. Thanks for the offer but no. It doesnā€™t have to be so complicated. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/46 "2014-02-11T01:57:17Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > These puns are striking a bad chord with me. Hopefully the pun quality will pick up, or Iā€™ll be on guard. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/47 "2014-02-11T02:04:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What a load of shit this is. The price structure was clearly marked and very understandable had HE, THE CUSTOMER, not tried to haggle an even lower price. Dude, look at your OP. Look at how long it took you to explain the final price. What you related is anything but ā€œclearly markedā€. There is a reason the first couple of responses in this thread expressed confusion. I mean, I understood it, but you need to understand that a good bit of the problem is how you and your shop explain things. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/48 "2014-02-11T02:24:30Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Hopefully the pun quality will pick up, or Iā€™ll be on guard. My position is that if the customer is whining ā€œwah, wahā€, the distortion may be coming from how you pedal your guitars. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/49 "2014-02-11T02:27:01Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Iā€™m actually a little annoyed at the OP. This customer walks into the shop, and they settle on a price for him to come back the next day with his trade in. He comes back and the price isnā€™t what he was told. He hesitates because he feels like heā€™s been lied to and waits another couple of days. The third time he walks in a different guy gives him yet a third answer. Fucking hell, this guitar shop is worse than my cable company. > > The OP is pitting the customer for the OPā€™s failure to offer an understandable price structure. Honestly, while I do see the confusion, at the end of the day, itā€™s a pretty simple decision. Do I want to pay $430 for the guitar with the trade-in or donā€™t I? If I, as a customer, really feel like the seller is trying to screw me and lie to me, I have the same attitude as from the selling side. Fuck off, Iā€™m going somewhere else. If you really think the salesperson is lying and trying to screw with you, why would you buy from them? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/50 "2014-02-11T04:18:54Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Honestly, while I do see the confusion, at the end of the day, itā€™s a pretty simple decision. Yeah, it is. But thatā€™s not what the OP is saying. It sounds like a good deal on a guitar to me, and I certainly donā€™t think the shop is being dishonest, but this OP is about confusion. Itā€™s even in the title. I suspect the OP is just bad at haggling. I donā€™t mean that he frequently gets rooked, just that he canā€™t explain the price heā€™s asking very well. Rule one for a seller in terms of haggling is never talk about politics or religion. Fine there. Rule two is taxes. Never _ever_ bring taxes into it. Percentages are too goddamn confusing for people. Hereā€™s an example from our OP: Quick - how much is 9.25% of $420? ā€¦ No, you canā€™t use a calculator. So thatā€™s why I donā€™t sympathize with the OP very much. The customer may very well be a complete dickhead, I donā€™t know, but I canā€™t get behind the OP bitching about the confusion. Never _ever_ say ā€œtax includedā€. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/51 "2014-02-11T04:35:33Z")
Eh, tax included is a good thing for consumers. Itā€™s the only way I buy cars. ā€œLook, I donā€™t care how much you charge me for the CAR, okay? But I have $X today and thatā€™s what Iā€™m paying. You can figure out the tax and whatever yourself.ā€ Fuck math. I want a car. The customer is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/52 "2014-02-11T05:09:12Z")
> [@Silver\_Fire](#): > > Fuck math. I want a car. Heh. Something makes me think you paid way too much for your last one. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/53 "2014-02-11T13:03:37Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Dude, look at your OP. Look at how long it took you to explain the final price. What you related is anything but ā€œclearly markedā€. There is a reason the first couple of responses in this thread expressed confusion. I mean, I understood it, but you need to understand that a good bit of the problem is how you and your shop explain things. Dude, the pricing structure is the price clearly marked on the tag and thatā€™s it. The rest of it is the result of haggling by the customer. It didnā€™t take long at all to explain that the deal , before he came back in was $460 tax included. The problem began when he insisted that $460 tax included meant he should pay $420, and I tried repeatedly to explain it to him. The $30 on the case was a side item. I thought the guy was just having trouble understanding ā€œtax includedā€ but now I suspect this is his stealth method of haggling. Iā€™ve dealt with a lot of hagglers and they have several nethods. The straightforward ones just make and offer and there might be a counter offer and done. Some try to just wear you down until you give them a discount just to get rid of them. A few will say they were made an offer that was never made and , then say, youā€™re going back on your word, and threaten to never do business with you again. I think thatā€™s what this guy is up to. Fo guys like him itā€™s not so much about price as it is their personal victory. Heā€™ll come back , talk to the other salesman, who tell him what I already told him 8 freakin times, and then heā€™ll claim heā€™s reniging on his previous offer and want to talk to the manager or threaten to never come back, which IMO, is the best case scenario. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/54 "2014-02-11T13:17:20Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Yeah, it is. But thatā€™s not what the OP is saying. It sounds like a good deal on a guitar to me, and I certainly donā€™t think the shop is being dishonest, but this OP is about confusion. Itā€™s even in the title. I suspect the OP is just bad at haggling. I donā€™t mean that he frequently gets rooked, just that he canā€™t explain the price heā€™s asking very well. Rule one for a seller in terms of haggling is never talk about politics or religion. Fine there. Rule two is taxes. Never _ever_ bring taxes into it. Percentages are too goddamn confusing for people. Hereā€™s an example from our OP: > > Quick - how much is 9.25% of $420? ā€¦ No, you canā€™t use a calculator. > > So thatā€™s why I donā€™t sympathize with the OP very much. The customer may very well be a complete dickhead, I donā€™t know, but I canā€™t get behind the OP bitching about the confusion. Never _ever_ say ā€œtax includedā€. Out of curiousity could you tell me what your experience is in retail, and an enviornment where haggling is the rule rather than the exception? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/55 "2014-02-11T13:48:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Out of curiousity could you tell me what your experience is in retail, and an enviornment where haggling is the rule rather than the exception? I used to manage a hardware store, and it was never the rule but, cā€™mon. It was your shop that _started_ the haggling. How the fuck can you take trade ins and not haggle? I donā€™t know anything about guitars, but when I was taking used lawn mowers in as trade-ins you can be damned sure there was some back and forth about the price. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/56 "2014-02-11T13:50:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Out of curiousity could you tell me what your experience is in retail, and an enviornment where haggling is the rule rather than the exception? No kidding. Haggling is a relic of the dark ages. The notion that the best price goes to the person who knows how to play some stupid outdated ā€œgameā€ with vague rules has no place in the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/57 "2014-02-11T14:17:13Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Heh. Something makes me think you paid way too much for your last one. Youā€™re wrong, and Iā€™m not even sure why youā€™d assume that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/58 "2014-02-11T14:51:42Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Quick - how much is 9.25% of $420? ā€¦ No, you canā€™t use a calculator. Who cares? The customer doesnā€™t need to do any math whatsoever. He was told ā€œtax included.ā€ > [@](#): > > So thatā€™s why I donā€™t sympathize with the OP very much. The customer may very well be a complete dickhead, I donā€™t know, but I canā€™t get behind the OP bitching about the confusion. Never _ever_ say ā€œtax includedā€. That was not an terribly uncommon way of buying gear, in my experience. When I bought my first keyboard, I went out the door with Korg M1 $1000, tax included. Itā€™s pretty easy and requires no math on my part. I donā€™t understand where the difficulty is in the phrase ā€œtax included,ā€ from either the buyer or seller side. ā€œTax includedā€ is an awesome phrase for me to hear, as a customer. I know exactly what my cost is without having to go to a calculator and figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/59 "2014-02-11T14:59:41Z")
> [@Silver\_Fire](#): > > Youā€™re wrong, and Iā€™m not even sure why youā€™d assume that. Because you canā€™t do math. **Doug K** is wrong. Haggling is not a relic of the dark ages. The guy probably thinks the world runs like Walmart. There is no ā€œmanufacturerā€™s suggested retail priceā€ for a used product. If you are buying or selling something that is used, _you have to haggle_. Negotiation is a basic social interaction and will never die. If you are bad at it, you wonā€™t end up with a good deal. This happens to nation states, business owners, and people buying cars. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/60 "2014-02-11T15:01:01Z")
Wait - so the guy BOUGHT THE GUITAR already - and is now - after the fact - trying to get you to give him back money for a case that he ALREADY BOUGHT??? Why didnā€™t he do that before he bought the damn thing? This is not a customer whose business you want in the future. The hell with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=4)