# Dear Customer, I'm sorry the term tax included is so confusing for you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977 "2014-02-10T15:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/61 "2014-02-11T15:26:46Z")
Where did you get that idea? He didn’t buy anything, he was trying to trade in his old guitar on the new one. ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nauplius/32/51_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/62 "2014-02-11T15:32:58Z")
Who was the first person to mention the $420 price? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/63 "2014-02-11T15:39:41Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Wait - so the guy BOUGHT THE GUITAR already errrmmm… no. No cash has changed hands at this point. But thank you, **Mama Zappa** , you have unwittingly proved my point. Posters on the SDMB are a pretty smart bunch. And if the SDMB posters are a bit confused by the transaction, well, maybe **Cosmodan** didn’t do a good job explaining himself in negotiations. **Cosmodan** , for what it’s worth, I’m what you called in an earlier post as a “straight haggler”. Don’t think I don’t sympathize, it’s just that your shop did not make it simple. Maybe it’s my cynicism talking, but people are dumb. If part of your job is haggling with dumb people, good God, keep it simple. Don’t expect them to do math. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/64 "2014-02-11T15:53:15Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Don’t expect them to do math. But there was no math to do. Prices were given tax included, no? Unless I’m wildly misunderstanding the OP, this is about as simple a transaction as you can make it for the customer as the customer knows exactly his “out the door” price because it’s given to him straight up, instead of having to calculate the tax on top of it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/65 "2014-02-11T16:05:07Z")
Look, there’s even plenty of hot dog stands and small fast food establishments here that have written on the menu “tax included.” This isn’t that difficult a concept. It makes it easier for the customer. When I see a hot dog is $2, tax included, that means I hand over $2 and satisfy the terms of the transaction. I don’t have to do any mental math and think, ok, there’s 9.25% tax on that, so that’s about an extra, what 18 or 19 cents, so I’m really paying $2.19, not $2. It sounds to me like the customer was doing some rough math and pulling the $420 out his ass. The price was $460, tax included. Somehow, the customer got it in his head that this means he pays about $420, the store covers the tax, and we end up at $460. It was the _customer_ pulling out the math to arrive at the $420 pre-tax price. (At least as is told in the story.) It just sounds to me like the customer was trying to confuse the OP by throwing numbers around. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/66 "2014-02-11T16:14:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But there was no math to do… Did you read the same OP I did? Look at it again and count the times numbers were mentioned. The shop’s guitar has a retail value of $899. But there’s a 10 % discount. Except there’s a trade in of $350 which comes off of the original price. There is also sales tax which is 9.25%, or 0.0925, depending on how you look at it. Now, explain to me how that is not math. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/67 "2014-02-11T16:26:36Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Did you read the same OP I did? Look at it again and count the times numbers were mentioned. The shop’s guitar has a retail value of $899. But there’s a 10 % discount. Except there’s a trade in of $350 which comes off of the original price. There is also sales tax which is 9.25%, or 0.0925, depending on how you look at it. > > Now, explain to me how that is not math. The prices given to the customer require no math. The price was given as $460, tax included, no math needed. It was the customer who ended up doing an extra bit of math to arrive at that $420 price. No math is necessary for the customer to understand the final offer. It’s either out the door at $460 or, if you take out the case, $430. I don’t know how much more straightforward the offer can be. The customer doesn’t need to compute the 9.25% tax at all, as it’s included in the offer. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/68 "2014-02-11T16:31:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The prices given to the customer require no math. The price was given as $460, tax included, no math needed. I’m putting you in the same category as **silverfire**. i.e. someone who always expects things like math should be done for them, rather than by them. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/69 "2014-02-11T16:36:33Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Because you o math. **Doug K** is wrong. Haggling is not a relic of the dark ages. The guy probably thinks the world runs like Walmart. There is no “manufacturer’s suggested retail price” for a used product. If you are buying or selling something that is used, _you have to haggle_. Negotiation is a basic social interaction and will never die. If you are bad at it, you won’t end up with a good deal. This happens to nation states, business owners, and people buying cars. I didn’t say anything about haggling, I said “Fuck math.” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/70 "2014-02-11T16:36:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That was not an terribly uncommon way of buying gear, in my experience. When I bought my first keyboard, I went out the door with Korg M1 $1000, tax included. It’s pretty easy and requires no math on my part. I don’t understand where the difficulty is in the phrase “tax included,” from either the buyer or seller side. “Tax included” is an awesome phrase for me to hear, as a customer. I know exactly what my cost is without having to go to a calculator and figure it out. exactly ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/71 "2014-02-11T16:53:58Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > No kidding. Haggling is a relic of the dark ages. The notion that the best price goes to the person who knows how to play some stupid outdated “game” with vague rules has no place in the 21st century. oh how very wrong you are. get out much? ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nauplius/32/51_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/72 "2014-02-11T17:10:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It was the customer who ended up doing an extra bit of math to arrive at that $420 price. How do you figure that? Looking back at the OP it sounds to me like the salesman was the one who came up with that number (probably while explaining how the tax works). That’s why I asked earlier who came up with the $420 price first. If it was the salesman I can understand the customers confusion since in his mind he was told one price and then 2 days later is getting a different price. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/73 "2014-02-11T17:29:19Z")
Hey, **Cosmodan** , I want to ask you about something that’s a bit irrelevant to your OP. I want your advice, actually. I want a digital piano. Not a keyboard, exactly, but something that plays like a piano and yet doesn’t have the size of a piano. The best way I can explain it is that I want a keyboard that gives feedback from the keys. Most of the keyboards I’ve played around with just feel like I’m pressing switches. I want something digital that mimics hammering piano strings. Something that translates how hard I hit the keys. Does something like that even exist, and if so, where can I buy it? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/74 "2014-02-11T17:32:12Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Because you can’t do math. **Doug K** is wrong. Haggling is not a relic of the dark ages. The guy probably thinks the world runs like Walmart. There is no “manufacturer’s suggested retail price” for a used product. If you are buying or selling something that is used, _you have to haggle_. Negotiation is a basic social interaction and will never die. If you are bad at it, you won’t end up with a good deal. This happens to nation states, business owners, and people buying cars. Watching a few episodes of “Extreme Cheapskates,” one of the things that impressed me was that these guys are very into haggling, and they get a better price far more often than I would have expected them to. Even at a McDonald’s drive-through - they want to pay less than the $6.99 that their meal costs, and either they get a better price, or they get something thrown in just to make them go away. Maybe it was the phrase “tax included” that threw the customer off - that sounds more complicated than, “Give me $460, take the guitar, and get out of my store.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/75 "2014-02-11T17:39:54Z")
There is no missing dollar. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/76 "2014-02-11T18:15:24Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I’m putting you in the same category as **silverfire**. i.e. someone who always expects things like math should be done for them, rather than by them. O…K…? I don’t understand your point. The only thing I care about, as a customer, is how much money comes out of my pocket. Whether that is phrased as $460 tax included or as $421.05 plus tax is irrelevant to me. And, yes, making it easier for the customer to immediately know how much they’re paying is good practice. When I give my prices, I tell them what I have to tax them on, how much that tax is, and what their final cost is, so they don’t come to me all surprised when they see their contract is more than they originally thought it was for because they didn’t think about tax. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/77 "2014-02-11T18:18:30Z")
> [@Nauplius](#): > > How do you figure that? Looking back at the OP it sounds to me like the salesman was the one who came up with that number (probably while explaining how the tax works). That’s why I asked earlier who came up with the $420 price first. If it was the salesman I can understand the customers confusion since in his mind he was told one price and then 2 days later is getting a different price. From the story as given in the OP, the number we have reported to us is $460 tax included, by the salesman, and the first mention of $420 was by the customer. If the salesman did mention $420 at some point, then I am more sympathetic to the customer. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/78 "2014-02-11T18:25:47Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Hey, **Cosmodan** , I want to ask you about something that’s a bit irrelevant to your OP. I want your advice, actually. I want a digital piano. Not a keyboard, exactly, but something that plays like a piano and yet doesn’t have the size of a piano. The best way I can explain it is that I want a keyboard that gives feedback from the keys. Most of the keyboards I’ve played around with just feel like I’m pressing switches. I want something digital that mimics hammering piano strings. Something that translates how hard I hit the keys. Does something like that even exist, and if so, where can I buy it? Have you played the weighted key digital pianos lately? Try out something like a [Yamaha S90XS](http://www.musiciansfriend.com/keyboards-midi/yamaha-s90xs-88-key-balanced-weighted-hammer-action-synthesizer). The phrase you’re probably looking for is “hammer action.” ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nauplius/32/51_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/79 "2014-02-11T18:27:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > “But the other sales man already offered it to me for $420” This is what made me think it was the salesman that at some point during their conversation came up with the number. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/80 "2014-02-11T18:33:59Z")
> [@Nauplius](#): > > This is what made me think it was the salesman that at some point during their conversation came up with the number. And this is what makes me think the customer pulled the $420 figure from somewhere that most people don’t store things: > [@cosmosdan](#): > > So instead of $460 plus tax , the deal is now $460 tax included. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=5)