# Dear Customer, I'm sorry the term tax included is so confusing for you. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977 "2014-02-10T15:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/101 "2014-02-11T22:17:47Z")
Thank you! Sometimes I think I’m invisible around here. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/102 "2014-02-11T22:35:52Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Read up a couple of posts where I said I understood. Missed that, sorry. You also said the OP was confusing. IMO, it wasn’t. My impression is that you were confused, not that the OP was confusing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/103 "2014-02-11T22:45:58Z")
It’s very possible he understood and way trying to get a better deal. This is supported by the fact that he repeatedly came back to get new discounts. After he got the 10%, he came back another day for the trade in (if he did both at the same time, it likely wouldn’t have been given). Then he came back yet another day to say he didn’t want the case. That sounds like a plan worthy of somebody who is capable of understanding the discounts. The only question on the confusion issue is exactly what the previous salesman said. He might have said something like “We’ll cover the tax, so you’re really getting it for $420”, emphasizing how impressive the $420 price point is. I say this because the guy kept insisting on the $420 number, even more than he was insisting on anything about tax. That would be a bad way to phrase the offer (a better way being “The customer pays $460, total and takes the guitar”, as you put it). So either the customer was being dishonest, or the previous salesman messed up and mentioned the $420 number while also mentioning covering the tax, a combination which could indeed be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/104 "2014-02-11T22:51:05Z")
> [@Nauplius](#): > > Who was the first person to mention the $420 price? The customer. When I told him I’d give him $30 for the case, just as the OP describes ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/105 "2014-02-11T22:57:29Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > It’s very possible he understood and way trying to get a better deal. This is supported by the fact that he repeatedly came back to get new discounts. After he got the 10%, he came back another day for the trade in (if he did both at the same time, it likely wouldn’t have been given). Then he came back yet another day to say he didn’t want the case. That sounds like a plan worthy of somebody who is capable of understanding the discounts. > > The only question on the confusion issue is exactly what the previous salesman said. He might have said something like “We’ll cover the tax, so you’re really getting it for $420”, emphasizing how impressive the $420 price point is. I say this because the guy kept insisting on the $420 number, even more than he was insisting on anything about tax. That would be a bad way to phrase the offer (a better way being “The customer pays $460, total and takes the guitar”, as you put it). > > So either the customer was being dishonest, or the previous salesman messed up and mentioned the $420 number while also mentioning covering the tax, a combination which could indeed be confusing. Sure , I get that may have happned but after I explained it several times, the $420 **plus** sales tax, $460 tax included means you pay $460, and showed him on the calculator the break down of the discounts and trade in you’d think the light would go on. I’m more convinced than ever that this is simply a BS haggling technique for this guy. Some hagglers have way to much ego involved. I’ve had a few honest guys admit they just have a thing about not paying the sticker price which is fine as long as it remains friendly. This guy took it a bit to far. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/106 "2014-02-11T23:16:28Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > . Rule two is taxes. Never _ever_ bring taxes into it. Percentages are too goddamn confusing for people. Here’s an example from our OP: Personally I find this a little ridiculous. The customer wants to know what their total is period so they often ask us to figure the tax for them and give them the total of what they will pay. “how much is that with tax?” Other times they mention taxes and as us to include them, at the tagged price, or for an “out the door price” or “Does that rpice include taxes?” We find daily that “We’ll cover the sales tax and make that price taces included” is a very successful sales tool. Remeber our taxes are almost 10% so that’s relevant on larger purchases. It’s cool that you’ve had retail experience and did some haggling but I think most people who are in an enviornment that haggles daily will tell you rule 2 is baloney. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/107 "2014-02-11T23:18:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sure , I get that may have happned but after I explained it several times, the $420 **plus** sales tax, $460 tax included means you pay $460, and showed him on the calculator the break down of the discounts and trade in you’d think the light would go on. I’m more convinced than ever that this is simply a BS haggling technique for this guy. Yeah, I agree. He probably got the idea to claim the deal was for him to pay $420 because the $420 number had been mentioned, but in reality understood what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/108 "2014-02-11T23:24:36Z")
I was at a crab restaurant in Northern Virginia one night. It was a night when they had a discount on crab dinners. You would think they would have had this down pat, since it was apparently a common pricing thing. Anyway, when we got the bill, they had charged me the everyday price on my crab dinner instead of the Tuesday special price. I asked the waitress to come over and pointed out that there were signs all over the restaurant for the Tuesday night special, but she had charged me the standard price. I don’t know if I wasn’t making myself clear, or if she was especially dense, but she had to go get the manager to talk to me. After explaining myself to him for about the fourth time, he finally, I THINK, figured out what I was driving at, and he said, “OK, the price is $10.99, the discount is $1.50, so we’ll charge you $9.49.” I thanked him, and then told him that he now needed to deduct the difference on the tax he had charged on $10.99, as well. I don’t think he ever understood what I was talking about, but he finally sighed and gave me the total that I was entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/109 "2014-02-11T23:27:30Z")
^That’s fine and correct on your end, but that’s not exactly the sort of subtlety that is the big issue in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/110 "2014-02-11T23:29:47Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I used to manage a hardware store, and it was never the rule but, c’mon . So your limited experience must be superior to my years of experience? > [@](#): > > It was your shop that _started_ the haggling. Where the hell did you get this idea? Do you think we normally volunteer to reduce our profit margin even when the customer doesn’t ask for a better price? The haggling begins when the customer says “what’s the best you can do on this?” and that happens many times a day. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/111 "2014-02-12T00:04:17Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > . How the fuck can you take trade ins and not haggle? . It’s a rule of thumb that the trade in comes off the tagged price for a good reason. If I offer someone an $800 guitar for $700 , that’s $700 coming into the store. If I offer $300 on a trade in now only $400 is coming in. If I offer $300 trade off the tag we’re down to $500 and there’s a good chance the customer will take it at that price because I’ve been generous on the trade. OTOH, if I’ve given a cash discount before the trade, then I can’t be as generous on the trade which can result in the customer thinking they’re not getting a fair trade. Plenty of customers play the game of negotiating a cash price before they even tell you there’s a trade{like this customer did} so as a rule the staff should tell them the trade comes off the tag price and the prior negotiated cash price is void. Ultimately the store and the customer have bottem lines so if the customer asks for a bit off plus thier trade value , it’s not written in stone that we can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/112 "2014-02-12T00:40:42Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > errrmmm… no. No cash has changed hands at this point. > > But thank you, **Mama Zappa** , you have unwittingly proved my point. Posters on the SDMB are a pretty smart bunch. And if the SDMB posters are a bit confused by the transaction, well, maybe **Cosmodan** didn’t do a good job explaining himself in negotiations. > > **Cosmodan** , for what it’s worth, I’m what you called in an earlier post as a “straight haggler”. Don’t think I don’t sympathize, it’s just that your shop did not make it simple. Maybe it’s my cynicism talking, but people are dumb. If part of your job is haggling with dumb people, good God, keep it simple. Don’t expect them to do math. You are seriously missing the point of the OP . For one thing what I tried to describe in the OP took place over several days and I was only involved in the last day. Yes, I know to keep it simple. I’ve gotten quite good at explaining things to folks in simple terms and I know what things tend to confuse them. I in no way expected him to do the math. I thought the deal was done at $460 taxes included and offered him $430 taxes included if we kept the case, which he said he didn’t need. It was only a problem when he claimed he’d been offered a deal he was never offered. I tried several times in several ways including on a calculator right in front of him to explain to him, that $460 taxes included means you pay a total of $460 because the taxes are included, rather than $460 plus sales tax. There’s a pretty significant difference between someone skimming the OP and not getting it and me taking 30 minutes to go over it again and again. I Imagine the pretty smart bunch on the SDMB would easily understand what $460 taxes included meant, even if they weren’t familiar with it, with, evidently, the possible exception of you. 😉 Seriously, the OP was about this guy being incredibly dense about something that was indeed simple math that I did for him repeatedly. Now I think he wasn’t confused at all, just playing his own haggling game. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/113 "2014-02-12T00:50:10Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > And this is what makes me think the customer pulled the $420 figure from somewhere that most people don’t store things: In fact he specifically said that he had subtracted the tax from $460 and that’s where he got it. He never claimed the other salesman actually said $420 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/114 "2014-02-12T00:54:16Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I’m putting you in the same category as **silverfire**. i.e. someone who always expects things like math should be done for them, rather than by them. WTF!!! aren’t you the same guy that said KEEP IT SIMPLE. and DON’T EXPECT THEM TO DO MATH? So, presenting the offer in a way that doesn’t require any math on the customers part should be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/115 "2014-02-12T01:03:24Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Again, that’s kinda the point. If **Cosmodan** was as confusing in haggling as he is here… Look dipshit, the OP isn’t about haggling. The haggling was 90% done when he came in to talk to me. I offered him $30 off if he left the case and we never disagreed about that. The problem was he claimed he was already offered $420 when he never had been. My mistake was taking him to be sincere in not understanding the offer and trying to explain the breakdown and the simple idea that $460 taxes included means he pays $460. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/116 "2014-02-12T01:17:13Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Ok… Got it. > > No wonder the customer was confused. OP is a confusing person. Well sure , even though other people got it, it must be me and not you. Ok, I could have phrased that line better, but explaining very basic math, with a calculator, and what $46O tax included means, is not confusing is it? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/117 "2014-02-12T01:29:50Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Hey, **Cosmodan** , I want to ask you about something that’s a bit irrelevant to your OP. I want your advice, actually. I want a digital piano. Not a keyboard, exactly, but something that plays like a piano and yet doesn’t have the size of a piano. The best way I can explain it is that I want a keyboard that gives feedback from the keys. Most of the keyboards I’ve played around with just feel like I’m pressing switches. I want something digital that mimics hammering piano strings. Something that translates how hard I hit the keys. Does something like that even exist, and if so, where can I buy it? Ok here’s my advice, PLANT A BIG KISS ON MY HAIRY ASS YOU CONDESCENDING TWERP!!! 😃 but seriously; it can be called hammered action. The term I’m more accustomed to is weighted keys. Made specifically to simulate the action of acoustic pianos. Lots of companies make good and inexpensive keyboards that do that. Yamaha , Casio, Korg, possibly Roland all make good keyboards that are 88 weighted keys for around $500. We sell good used ones for $300 or $350. They have limited sounds, usually a,few pianos , organs, strings, clavinet. For another $100 or so you get more voices and some memory for recording what you’re playing. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/118 "2014-02-12T03:51:21Z")
To sum: Things got confusing when someone mentioned something ($420) that really only matters to the business, not to the customer. It’s about as relevant – to the customer – as discussing, say, what the shop owner pays in rent to the owner of the commercial block property. Or what the sales people’s health benefits are. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/119 "2014-02-12T05:14:05Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Thank you! Sometimes I think I’m invisible around here. ``` ... what? ``` [/Betty Jo Bialoski voice] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977/120 "2014-02-12T05:38:54Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Man, it is way too early on a Monday morning for that much math. But I’m seeing a nine hundred dollar item being sold for $430 and the customer is STILL haggling? Dang. “Two pair or I don’t leave.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-customer-im-sorry-the-term-tax-included-is-so-confusing-for-you/680977.md?page=7)