# Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845 "2008-09-14T04:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/61 "2008-09-16T16:18:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Clearly Dio has met his Moriarty. Moriarty fought back. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/62 "2008-09-16T16:29:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have no idea what you’re referring to or what it has to do with “strength.” that’s ok, niether does he. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/63 "2008-09-16T16:32:08Z")
I’ve moved several dozen posts out of **Sam Stone** ’s “[Democrats, listen up if you’d like to win the election.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=482747&page=3)” thread and into this one because I decided there was absolutely no way to follow the conversation between **Diogenes** , **pinkyvee** and a few other posters without seeing them. Those posts didn’t have much to do with **Sam** ’s original topic anyway, so now they’re all in here. The original OP by **pinkyvee** is now post #34. I realize this is confusing but I decided it’s less confusing than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/64 "2008-09-16T16:53:30Z")
Ok, now that there’s a shiny new OP, I just had to laugh at this: > [@pinkyvee](#): > > I was not convinced this man could stand up to his own party power brokers - someone had neutered him! > He does not seem to be his own man - he’s being managed too carefully. Barack Obama laid down the law to the Democratic Party and brought them on board his No Lobbyist Money train, which you know had to have freaked them out initially, and got them to move their national headquarters to CHICAGO, where his headquarters is, and away from Washington. John McCain, Mr. Maverick, wanted to choose Joe Lieberman as his VP, but capitulated to the Republican Party and chose a right-wing-religious-nut to pander to the “base,” not to mention the fact that he hasn’t bucked the Republican Party in the slightest over the past 2 years, so that he could better align himself with the Right Wing fringes so that he could win this election. Bottom line; you’re factually incorrect in this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/65 "2008-09-16T16:54:32Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > I watch Hilary get smeared by viceous attack dogs ~~\>\*\* DEMOCRATIC LIBERAL\*\* attack dogs - and even though I did not vote for Hilary in the primary - I was offended. > This foul and unfair treatment soured me toward the Obama camp. Can you give an example of this treatment? > [@](#): > > I felt nuthin’ - and considered sitting this one out - till Sarah gave her acceptance speech - then I felt fired up - I felt motivated to open my mind up to consider possibly voting REP this time – McCain is better with her by his side - I found Palin to be interesting and refreshing. What appeals to you about Governor Palin? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/66 "2008-09-16T16:56:38Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > **pinkyvee** , are you even familiar with Senator Obama’s feelings and stand on abortion, or do you just think Demcrat=Baby Killers? I highly recommend that you read his entire [Call to Renewal Keynote Address](http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php), you might find it enlightening. Oh this is just too rich. So now the man who in the '90s supported infanticide is now some type of moral crusader who doesn’t _like_ abortion but just wants to uphold the rights of women to have one, because it’s a religious issue and religion isn’t the concern of the state? Christ every time I read or hear this guy he’s more full of opportunistic, pandering, mealy mouthed bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/67 "2008-09-16T17:03:45Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > So now the man \*\*who in the '90s supported infanticide \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/68 "2008-09-16T17:13:00Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > So now the man who in the '90s supported infanticide is now some type of moral crusader who doesn’t _like_ abortion but just wants to uphold the rights of women to have one, because it’s a religious issue and religion isn’t the concern of the state? Christ every time I read or hear this guy he’s more full of opportunistic, pandering, mealy mouthed bullshit. Right wing smear tactics at their best! Very Rovian of you, **Weirddave**. My hat is off. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/69 "2008-09-16T17:14:52Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Oh this is just too rich. So now the man who in the '90s supported infanticide This is flatly untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/70 "2008-09-16T17:16:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Right wing smear tactics at their best! Very Rovian of you, **Weirddave**. My hat is off. He’s talking about the “Born Alive Bill” canard. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/71 "2008-09-16T17:24:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is flatly untrue. It is demonstratively true. Obama opposed a bill in Illinois that stated “A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.” Even [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) backs this up: [Read it and weep](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html). And stop trying to lie about your candidate’s voting record. It’s all a matter of public record, in black and white for the whole world to see, no matter how hard you try to muddy the waters and confuse the issue. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/72 "2008-09-16T17:37:48Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It is demonstratively **true**. I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Well, either that one or “infanticide”. It’s a toss-up, really. Barack Obama is no more “pro-infanticide” than John McCain is “pro-women bleeding out from coat hanger wounds”. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/73 "2008-09-16T17:40:54Z")
I think you’re immature and childish. You are completely being played for a fool. First of all, you’re letting Gloria Steinem decide your vote for you. I don’t know why you should care what she says, or what anyone else says. You ought to listen to what Obama and McCain say and decide based on that. You sound like someone who is especially easily caught up in campaign bullshit. If you don’t see that coming from McCain then you’ve got real problems. So you voted for Obama and got your feelings hurt when people were being mean to Hillary. And now you vote for McCain out of spite because a couple of us here on this board or blogs said nasty things about her. If you vote for McCain against your own interests and beliefs because of something people other than McCain or Obama said, then the words I’d use to describe you aren’t appropriate for this forum ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/74 "2008-09-16T17:43:54Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It is demonstratively true. Obama opposed a bill in Illinois that stated “A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.” Even [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) backs this up: [Read it and weep](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html). And stop trying to lie about your candidate’s voting record. It’s all a matter of public record, in black and white for the whole world to see, no matter how hard you try to muddy the waters and confuse the issue. No, it is NOT true that he “supported infanticide.” He opposed a [sleazy attempt to define fetuses at “any stage of development” as “persons.”](http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/08/19/fact_check_born_alive_1.php) There was already a law in place in Illinois mandating that any hypothetically abortion-surviving fetus be given care (and this is almost a purely theoretical scenario anyway. It’s not something that ever actually happens since abortions are virtually never performed in the 3rd trimester anyway). Obama said he would support the federal version of the law which was better worded. Saying he “supported infanticide” just isn’t true whatsoever. I also haven’t “lied” about Obama’s voting record. He has never voted “for infanticide.” You are distorting what the bill was and why Obama voted against it. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/75 "2008-09-16T17:47:28Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > I watch Hilary get smeared by viceous attack dogs ~~\>\*\* DEMOCRATIC LIBERAL\*\* attack dogs - and even though I did not vote for Hilary in the primary - I was offended. This foul and unfair treatment soured me toward the Obama camp. > > […] Sarah gave her acceptance speech - then I felt fired up - I felt motivated to open my mind up to consider possibly voting REP this time – McCain is better with her by his side - I found Palin to be interesting and refreshing. I found it more fun to answer you[in the pit.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=483619) ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/76 "2008-09-16T17:49:49Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It is demonstratively true. Note that fact check got pretty pissy when John McCain twisted it in the same manner that you just did. Those with reading skills will note the closing paragraph > [@](#): > > The documents from the NRLC support the group’s claims that Obama is misrepresenting the contents of SB 1082. But does this mean – as some, like anti-abortion crusader Jill Stanek, have claimed – that he supports infanticide? > > In discussions of abortion rights, definitions are critically important. The main bills under discussion, SB 1082 and the federal BAIPA, are both definition bills. They are not about what can and should be done to babies; they are about how one defines “baby” in the first place. Those who believe that human life begins at conception or soon after can argue that even a fetus with no chance of surviving outside the womb is an “infant.” We won’t try to settle that one. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/77 "2008-09-16T17:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Shayna > Barack Obama laid down the law to the Democratic Party and brought them on board his No Lobbyist Money train, which you know had to have freaked them out initially, and got them to move their national headquarters to CHICAGO, where his headquarters is, and away from Washington. as Jack Chick would say HAW HAW HAW!!! She even put Chicago in caps. Dio is getting his ass handed to him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/78 "2008-09-16T17:53:43Z")
> [@PhiloVance](#): > > as Jack Chick would say HAW HAW HAW!!! > > She even put Chicago in caps. > > Dio is getting his ass handed to him. By who? ---
**Author:** ![Aholibah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Aholibah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aholibah)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/79 "2008-09-16T17:56:10Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It is demonstratively true. Obama opposed a bill in Illinois that stated “A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.” Even [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) backs this up: [Read it and weep](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html). And stop trying to lie about your candidate’s voting record. It’s all a matter of public record, in black and white for the whole world to see, no matter how hard you try to muddy the waters and confuse the issue. This is impressive. I hadn’t heard this infanticide thing before, so I did as you suggest and clicked the link you helpfully provided so that I could read all about Obama the infanticide-supporter. Here’s what I learned, from your cite: > [@factcheck.org](#): > > Whether opposing “born alive” legislation is the same as supporting “infanticide,” however, is entirely a matter of interpretation. That could be true only for those, such as Obama’s 2004 Republican opponent, Alan Keyes, who believe a fetus that doctors give no chance of surviving is an “infant.” \ > > The documents from the NRLC support the group’s claims that Obama is misrepresenting the contents of SB 1082. But does this mean – as some, like anti-abortion crusader Jill Stanek, have claimed – that he supports infanticide? > > In discussions of abortion rights, definitions are critically important. \*\*The main bills under discussion, SB 1082 and the federal BAIPA, are both definition bills. They are not about what can and should be done to babies; they are about how one defines “baby” in the first place. Those who believe that human life begins at conception or soon after can argue that even a fetus with no chance of surviving outside the womb is an “infant.” \*\* We won’t try to settle that one. > > What we can say is that **many other people – perhaps most – think of “infanticide” as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion.** So, it sounds like he’s done some misrepresenting of the facts about Illinois SB 1082, which he voted against. That’s disappointing. But it also sounds like he’s not actually been out there leading the charge for the legalization of infanticide. Whew! And you had me worried about that for a second there, **Wierddave**. I don’t think it’s very honest of you to offer as proof for your contention a cite that resolutely refuses to actually claim the thing you contend. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/80 "2008-09-16T17:59:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Obama said he would support the federal version of the law which was better worded. Saying he “supported infanticide” just isn’t true whatsoever. I also haven’t “lied” about Obama’s voting record. He has never voted “for infanticide.” You are distorting what the bill was and why Obama voted against it. That’s the way the campaign wants to spin it, but it’s just not true: From my cite: “But the Obama campaign statement says that “Illinois And Federal Born Alive Infant Protection Acts Did Not Include Exactly The Same Language.” That’s true for the earlier versions that Obama voted against. In the case of SB 1082, as it was amended just before being killed, it’s false.” Maybe we should take a page from your book WRT Palin and classify this one as “He was against it before he was for it”. Nurse Carmen. You quote: > [@](#): > > Those who believe that human life begins at conception or soon after can argue that even a fetus with no chance of surviving outside the womb is an “infant.” We won’t try to settle that one. What you fail to note is that that is not an analysis of the bill in question, but of the abortion vs when does life begin argument itself. I’m sure that those with reading skill will have no trouble discerning the difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845.md?page=5)