# Dear Cynic a'la Diogenes \[why one woman is voting for McCain\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845 "2008-09-14T04:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/81 "2008-09-16T18:01:44Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Oh this is just too rich. So now the man who in the '90s supported infanticide is now some type of moral crusader who doesn’t _like_ abortion but just wants to uphold the rights of women to have one, because it’s a religious issue and religion isn’t the concern of the state? Christ every time I read or hear this guy he’s more full of opportunistic, pandering, mealy mouthed bullshit. Saying Obama supported “infanticide” seems _precisely_ the sort of “opportunistic, pandering, mealy mouthed bullshit” you are criticizing. Congratulations on joining the hypocrisy crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/82 "2008-09-16T18:03:44Z")
> [@Aholibah](#): > > This is impressive. I hadn’t heard this infanticide thing before, so I did as you suggest and clicked the link you helpfully provided so that I could read all about Obama the infanticide-supporter. Here’s what I learned, from your cite: > So, it sounds like he’s done some misrepresenting of the facts about Illinois SB 1082, which he voted against. That’s disappointing. But it also sounds like he’s not actually been out there leading the charge for the legalization of infanticide. Whew! And you had me worried about that for a second there, **Wierddave**. I don’t think it’s very honest of you to offer as proof for your contention a cite that resolutely refuses to actually claim the thing you contend. No, as a point of fact, it supports my claim. Obama did oppose the legislation I mentioned. The existence of other laws which might overlap the argument is immaterial, Illinois SB 1082 was seeking to clarify those laws and close any loopholes. Further, he continued to oppose it even after it was amended to include the same language as the federal statute, which Obama says he supports. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/83 "2008-09-16T18:11:27Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Ok, now that there’s a shiny new OP, I just had to laugh at this: Barack Obama laid down the law to the Democratic Party and brought them on board his No Lobbyist Money train, which you know had to have freaked them out initially, and got them to move their national headquarters to CHICAGO, where his headquarters is, and away from Washington. As far as I know, the DNC is still in Washington, DC. Unfortunately, you’re right about the lobbyist money, though. ETA: Nevermind, I see the DNC moved a lot of their departments to Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/84 "2008-09-16T18:11:53Z")
The legislation had nothing to do with “infanticide.” That is a sleazy, willfully dishonest Republican smear ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/85 "2008-09-16T18:14:20Z")
If a person can be so easily led to believe that Obama “supports infanticide”, they are a Lost Cause. If they are reading Obama Nation, they are a Lost Cause. If they claimed to support Hillary but now support McCain because of Obama’s actions, they are a Lost Cause. I do not want these numbnuts on my side, thankyouverymuch. I would rather lose without them than pander to them. Fuck them all. There is little time, and there are reasonable people to court. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/86 "2008-09-16T18:20:24Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It is demonstratively true. Obama opposed a bill in Illinois that stated “A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.” Even [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) backs this up: [Read it and weep](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html). And stop trying to lie about your candidate’s voting record. It’s all a matter of public record, in black and white for the whole world to see, no matter how hard you try to muddy the waters and confuse the issue. This one (not just from WD obviously) is just really really really starting to get on my nerves. Here’s what really really irks me about the number of times I’ve heard this: **1:** Obama’s worst enemies do not deny his intelligence. He’s not only an extremely ‘smart’ man, he’s a Harvard Law grad, Harvard Law Review editor who taught Constitutional Law for 12 years at U of Chicago (which is not exactly a Billy Joe Bickerstaff Law, Beauty and TV Repair school); he’s nobody’s fool on matters of reading and interpreting legislation and its possible ramifications and interpretations. **2:** Do you \*really and truly think \*that Obama and 20 other Illinois legislators (several of them Republican) would be sooooooooo evil as to say > [@](#): > > [Ming the Merciless voice]If the youngling is born alive and fully viable… kill it anyway. Heh heh. Heh heh heh hehhh… Buwwaahhhahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaaaaa!!! Kill it![/Ming the Merciless voice] In addition to being perversely heartless (have you ever known _anyone_ who thought that a full term or near full term infant should be killed?) it would be political suicide. Even a total baby hating sociopath is capable of self preservation by voting the “right” way on such a bill. So what are the chances that not only is Obama that evil and heartless, but that 20 other members of the Illinois legislature (several of them Republican) would be as well. Is it more likely that: A: The 92nd Illinois State Legislature just happened to be comprised 40% by politicians who not only had no moral qualms about killing born alive babies but were even willing to sacrifice their political careers just to make sure some babies got killed, knowing full well their votes were matters of public record? or B: That the issue was a bit more complex than that? Complexity such as that described on the website of (Constitutional scholar/Constitutional law professor) Obama (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Obama voted against a bill to amend the Statute on Statutes, to define “born-alive infant” to include “every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.” Further defines “born alive” to mean “the complete expulsion or extraction from the mother of an infant, at any stage of development, who after that expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut and regardless of whether of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.” **Obama predicted the bills would be struck down by a federal court were they to become law. Obama said, “Whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or other elements of the Constitution, we’re saying they are persons entitled to the kinds of protections provided to a child, a 9-month-old child delivered to term…That determination then essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place**.” or C. Obama heard a prophecy that the child who would supplant him was to be born alive as the result of a born-alive abortion that year and would stop at nothing to make sure said child was destroyed, even blackmailing, seducing, and or casting an imperius curse on 20 other legislators to make them vote his way (but still not quite enough). or D. TLDR Honestly, which is more likely- not a rhetorical question: that it was a complex policy issue with major strings attached, or Obama (the father of 2) is pro-infanticide? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/87 "2008-09-16T18:20:35Z")
If it’s fair to state Obama supported infanticide, is it fair to speculate how many babies John McCain killed in Viet Nam? FTR: I think both things are equally dispicable. Honestly, if anyone actually thinks a candidate for president supports killing infants-- either through legislation or military action, you’re a dispicable human being. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/88 "2008-09-16T18:22:38Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > If it’s fair to state Obama supported infanticide, is it fair to speculate how many babies John McCain killed in Viet Nam? Fair, but foolish. Doing so reinforces the opinion that liberals are unpatriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/89 "2008-09-16T18:25:26Z")
> [@PhiloVance](#): > > as Jack Chick would say HAW HAW HAW!!! > > She even put Chicago in caps. > > Dio is getting his ass handed to him. Did you get lost on your way to Free Republic or something? This is the Straight Dope, and more specifically, Great Debates, where cites and actual content are the accepted norm, as opposed to childish guffaws, meant to refute what, is unclear. > [@](#): > > [Obama moves DNC operations to Chicago](http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_moves_DNC_operations_to_Chicago.html) > > In a major shakeup at the Democratic National Committee – and a departure from tradition – large parts of the committee’s operations are relocating to Chicago to be fully integrated with the Obama campaign. > > The DNC’s political department, housed in Washington, D.C., will be dramatically rebuilt, with staffers offered a choice of moving to Chicago, joining state operations, or staying in Washington, DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney said. > > But the power will clearly be shifting to a centralized Chicago hub. > > The DNC’s key role in coordinating political operations with state parties is expected to largely be taken over and overseen by Obama’s senior staff in Chicago, state party officials said. > > . . . > [@](#): > > [DNC follows Obama, bans lobbyist, PAC money](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-06-05-dnc-money_N.htm) > > The campaign also announced that the DNC will no longer accept donations from lobbyists and political action committees, to comply with Obama’s campaign policy. Party officials say they expect the DNC’s staff to quickly expand to run an aggressive general election campaign. > > . . . This directly disputes the allegation that our new friend waged, namely, that “I was not convinced this man could stand up to his own party power brokers - someone had neutered him! He does not seem to be his own man - he’s being managed too carefully.” Them facts, they’re funny things, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/90 "2008-09-16T18:25:58Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > If it’s fair to state Obama supported infanticide, is it fair to speculate how many babies John McCain killed in Viet Nam? For 5 1/2 years he didn’t kill _any_ babies because he was a p.o.w. sustained by his faith in God. (And in fact the 23 bombing raids only killed military personnel and child molesters- very intelligent bombs- for McCain is pro-life, and an honorable man.) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/91 "2008-09-16T18:26:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Fair, but foolish. Doing so reinforces the opinion that liberals are unpatriotic. Since when does killing babies in war = patriotism? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/92 "2008-09-16T18:27:57Z")
This is a question of considerable importance to we of the Satanist community, who are virtually unanimous in our support of Obama (despite the fact that, as a Muslim, he is not, technically, a Satanist.) Orthodox and Conservative covens hold that for a sacrifice to the Dark Lord to be valid, the infant must be wholly viable, since offering up an infant with no chance for survival does not entail any real sacrifice, like “paying for services with counterfeit money”, as Mistress Hillary phrased it. Reform covens hold that anything from the moment of conception on qualifies as a fully realized infant. However, full compliance with appropriate ritual is essential, merely flushing an accidental miscarriage is not a “sacrifice”, as no intent is demonstrated. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. It is worth noting that the group that styles itself “Satanists for Obama” are not legitimate communicants, but a subterfuge intended to bring disfavor and disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/93 "2008-09-16T18:33:31Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Honestly, which is more likely- not a rhetorical question: that it was a complex policy issue with major strings attached, or Obama (the father of 2) is pro-infanticide? I think that it was a coldly calculated political decision designed to pander to the rabidly pro-choice crowd. I don’t think Obama is pro-infanticide. He did however, with that vote, support it to my definition, and I personally feel that that was a repugnant and unconscionable act, no matter how badly he wanted some group’s support. We keep being told how Obama is a different breed of politician, a man of integrity and honor. I’m sorry, but a man of honor stands up and tell the rabid pro-choicers “I completely support your cause, but I can not support a bill that would endorse, however unlikely, infanticide”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/94 "2008-09-16T18:36:11Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Since when does killing babies in war = patriotism? I didn’t write that it did. I don’t believe it does. What I implied was that many persons will take criticism of an American serviceman’s legal conduct during wartime as unpatriotic. Asserting that Senator McCain’s actions as a pilot make him a mass baby killer is not helpful to Senator Obama’s campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/95 "2008-09-16T18:40:36Z")
A vote against the bill was not a vote to permit “infanticide.” It was _already illegal to kill babies_, m’kay. Obama was not voting in a way which had any potential to _allow_ theoretically alive aborted fetuses to be killed. It is fundamentally dishonest to characterize a no vote on this bill as a vote to allow babies to be killed. No such outcome was possible. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/96 "2008-09-16T18:41:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That is a sleazy, willfully dishonest Republican smear “sleazy, willfully dishonest Republican” should be completely synonymous with “Rovian” So just “Rovian smear” should suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/97 "2008-09-16T18:45:07Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I think that it was a coldly calculated political decision designed to pander to the rabidly pro-choice crowd. I don’t think Obama is pro-infanticide. He did however, with that vote, support it to my definition, and I personally feel that that was a repugnant and unconscionable act, no matter how badly he wanted some group’s support. We keep being told how Obama is a different breed of politician, a man of integrity and honor. I’m sorry, but a man of honor stands up and tell the rabid pro-choicers “I completely support your cause, but I can not support a bill that would endorse, however unlikely, infanticide”. Are we reading the same thing? From your FactCheck link: > [@](#): > > The main bills under discussion, SB 1082 and the federal BAIPA, are both definition bills. They are not about what can and should be done to babies; they are about how one defines “baby” in the first place. Those who believe that human life begins at conception or soon after can argue that even a fetus with no chance of surviving outside the womb is an “infant.” We won’t try to settle that one. > > What we can say is that many other people – perhaps most – think of “infanticide” as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion. So, definition bills and NOT what should be done to infants at all. Further, laws already exist to protect babies born alive and Obama supports this. What part is repugnant? And standing up to his constituents? You hammer Obama over this but do not recognize numerous and remarkable reversals in McCain’s stance to appeal to his base? C’mon… ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/98 "2008-09-16T18:46:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I realize this is confusing but I decided it’s less confusing than the alternative. as you wish confused doesn’t even begin … thanks (?) I think pinky/no stinkin’ capitalizations ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/99 "2008-09-16T18:50:59Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > as you wish > > confused doesn’t even begin … > > thanks (?) I think > > pinky/no stinkin’ capitalizations How about complete sentences then? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845/100 "2008-09-16T19:02:36Z")
Adding to the above, Obama’s vote on Illinois’s _Induced Birth Infant Liability Act \* was decidedly **pro-Choice** and in the interest of keeping abortion legal, of that there’s no question. IF the legality of abortion is an important enough issue for you to decide who gets your vote, then (without debating the ethics of that issue_) Obama’s vote on that bill _is completely relevant_ to your decision. Obama’s pro-choice, he believes abortion shoudl be legal, and if you want a candidate who’s against it being legal then there’s no question- you want McCain/Palin. But for the love of all that is or may be sacred know _WHY_ his voite on that bill is important and what exactly he voted for. Turn on the critical thinking mechanism and don’t just blindly accept the notion that Obama voted to make it legal to walk through maternity wards with a hammer looking at baby’s and saying “need help with that? Not too late to change your mind!” Just drives me nuts when people simplify issues like that. (I really don’t think that McCain is an inhumanly evil man who wants to put gays into concentration camps and wants to stay in Iraq just to indulge his bloodlust while destroying the middle class, but that he happens to have radically different ideas that he didn’t come to lightly adn some of which have good logic [but ultimately I disagree with]; I wish a lot of his supporters would have similarly more complex views on Obama.) \*Personally I’m pro-Choice, but I probably understand the position of those who are anti-abortion more than I do almost any other opposing viewpoint on social issues. I think I speak for most pro-choicers when I say it’s not that we see a first trimester fetus as “just a clump of cells” but that we see it as a complicated issue and that ultimately and for many reasons it is and should remain a personal choice. I’ve no evidence to back this up, but my guess would be that a lot more people move from anti-abortion to pro-choice after thinking it through than move the opposite direction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-cynic-ala-diogenes-why-one-woman-is-voting-for-mccain/463845.md?page=6)