# Dear December, you ignorant f\*\*\*! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957 "2002-09-04T14:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/41 "2002-09-04T22:06:07Z")
Can we leave the composition of poetic Pit posts to **Fenris** , please? His are generally amusing **and** accurate. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/42 "2002-09-04T22:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > See – everybody wins. Now, I’ve got a coffee can right here, so who’s in for five bucks each? \*\* I’ll chip in…but I’ve already committed some scratch to andygirl’s “Adopt a Lesbo” movement. …choices…choices ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/43 "2002-09-04T23:05:36Z")
Jodi, I’m in! Just make sure _everything_ is either black or white. We wouldn’t want to have any shades of gray enter these guys lives. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/44 "2002-09-04T23:08:29Z")
Oh me too-but can it wait until Friday? That’s payday! **Cheesesteak** -in a court of law, you ARE innocent until proven guilty-at least, according to the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/45 "2002-09-04T23:17:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WV\_Woman \* > \*\*Anyone ever notice that only conservatives get Pitted? > > Anyone ever notice that when they do, they get talked to like they’re subhuman? > > And December is the hateful one? > > Mmmhmm. \*\* Can’t say as I disagree with you, VW\_Woman ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/46 "2002-09-04T23:23:21Z")
**His4ever** , if you wanted to jump on the martyr bandwagon, wouldn’t that be: _“Can’t say that I disagree with you, VW\_Woman”_? Or do you disagree with her, and therefore, you “can’t say” \? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/47 "2002-09-04T23:24:17Z")
I’m glad to see that we’ve contained the contamination. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/48 "2002-09-04T23:39:56Z")
**Guin** in a court of law, you are 100% correct. Courts, however, only decide what punishment the gov’t can use. It’s a bit of semantics, I guess, but “guilty” and “legally guilty” are different things which are too often interchanged. I’ve got $5 to contribute, **Jodi** you ARE taping this, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/49 "2002-09-04T23:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\ ***His4ever** , if you wanted to jump on the martyr bandwagon, wouldn’t that be: _“Can’t say that I disagree with you, VW\_Woman”_? > > Or do you disagree with her, and therefore, you “can’t say” \? \*\* Coldie, it’s an attempt at a yokel-ism. C’mere an’ set fur a while wilst ah tell yew ‘bout it. You bein’ a furriner an’ all, you ain’t familiar with folksy rural-esque yokel-isms. Y’see, more often 'n not, it’ns done as an attempt to sound “down home” and “jes plain folks”. Granted, there _are_ people for whom this is a legitimate dialect and more power to 'em. However, to those who adopt the dialect to be “folksy” lemme say “Ah hope you all wake up one day to find ‘possums nestin’ in yore knickers”. Bre’r Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/50 "2002-09-04T23:49:50Z")
COLDFIRE, ya ignant Yurpian, “can’t say as” is an acceptable, if colloquial (mostly Southern), construction of that sentence. For that matter, you don’t really need the “that” that you used; "you could just say “I can’t say I disagree.” But so far as colloquialism goes, she also could have said “I can’t say as how I disagree,” which is also used. It sounds pretty rural, though. A person who’d say “can’t say as how” for a negative statement might well say “bein’s [for being; pronounced bee-uns] as how” for a positive one (“Bein’s as how it’s supper time, let’s go eat.”) and at that point we’re clearly in Clampett territory. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/51 "2002-09-05T00:08:16Z")
Huh. Well, the Queens English only takes one so far, obviously. Blimey. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/52 "2002-09-05T00:10:12Z")
Re: The Poconos – Not my cup of tea. Make it Six Flags and you’ve got a deal. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/53 "2002-09-05T00:21:17Z")
comes now the urgent man whom duty calls to answer impugning fingers swarming, quick, grasping lithe, snatching crawl with quiet, scuttling politics over the husk of a real life no justice for the abandoned a sea of dead promises and credulous notions the fashion of the time the way of all things see the man ADAM-12 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/54 "2002-09-05T00:23:54Z")
Yeah, I figured I’d say something, bein’s as how your English skills are so pathetic and sad. [sub]Note to the humor-impaired: Yes, I know his English is actually quite fluent. That’s the point. Don’t make me hit you with the clue stick. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/55 "2002-09-05T00:25:33Z")
And I’ll shut up now, bein’s as how I can’t code. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/56 "2002-09-05T00:25:38Z")
Dialects are fascinating, and I like learning about them. So thanks! Now, git! [sub]Am I catching on yet?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/57 "2002-09-05T00:31:38Z")
“Now, git” – very good. Next: Banjo lessons! ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/58 "2002-09-05T01:31:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Oh me too-but can it wait until Friday? That’s payday! > > **Cheesesteak** -in a court of law, you ARE innocent until proven guilty-at least, according to the Constitution. \*\* :eek: I must have missed that when I read the constitution. Cite please? Guilty until proven innocent, and even then still guilty in the press and eyes of the public. Where is Fatty Arbuckle when you really need him? We all make these grand pronouncements. But anyone can talk the talk, who here can walk the walk? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/59 "2002-09-05T01:49:01Z")
Nope. It’s not in the constitution. However, I did find this cool [site](http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#innocent) about things that aren’t in the Constitution, but folks think they are. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/60 "2002-09-05T02:41:01Z")
**cheesesteak** , > [@](#): > > Now, if we are talking about the stance of our government with respect to incarceration, the government must treat you as innocent (pretty much) until the government proves you guilty. This made my jaw drop. There are two huge errors in the above statement: Error 1: The “government” have nothing whatsoever to do with it - it’s the law. The law predates all current governments. Yes, governments can enact legislation to amend the law but you are talking about the ancient legal principle of “innocent until proven guilty”. In modern democracies we have this thing called the “Separation of Powers”. The idea of this is that the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government are all kept separate and independent from each other. This is to prevent a dictatorship arising. The “government” isn’t trying to prove anyone guilty of anything. They leave all that stuff to the Judiciary. The Judiciary forms its opinions based on past and current law not on whatever the sitting government wants. Error 2: The “government” doesn’t “treat you as innocent (pretty much)”. You are _ **presumed** _ to be innocent until a court proves otherwise. You are not “treated” as innocent, you are “presumed” innocent. There is a big difference. It is, of course, a fact that some guilty people get set free by the courts if they are found innocent. I agree that they are still guilty but the problem is: how do we decide who’s guilty and who’s innocent? The way we decide is by having a legal system. Sure, it’s not perfect but then no human made system ever could be. We just try to make it as good as we can. And under our current system a person is innocent until proven guilty. Then you said: > [@](#): > > Courts, however, only decide what punishment the gov’t can use. It’s a bit of semantics, I guess, but “guilty” and “legally guilty” are different things which are too often interchanged. Eh? Courts decide more than just the punishment, they also detemine the guilt or innocence of a person. I accept that someone may be found innocent by a court but, in actual fact, still be guilty of the crime (maybe they got off on a technicality) but the fact is we have no way of knowing for sure whether or not Person X committed said crime (since we do not possess Godlike powers). Often, you can never really know whether or not someone committed a particular crime, you can only take your best guess. And the best mechanism we have available for making that guess is the legal system. So your distinction between the “legally guilty” and the “actually guilty” is, in practice, meaningless. There’s no way to know who’s “actually guilty” without being God. Since neither you nor I are God, we have to rely on the best (human) tool we have, which is the legal system. This means that, whatever you may privately think about the OJ case, he is officially innocent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=4)