# Dear December, you ignorant f\*\*\*! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957 "2002-09-04T14:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/81 "2002-09-11T23:40:40Z")
Go Sailor! Sic 'em! 😃 [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/cuba.htm](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/cuba.htm) > [@](#): > > Violence against women, especially domestic violence, and child prostitution were problems. > > \< snip \> > > The Government prohibits forced and bonded labor by children; however, it required children to do farm work without compensation. > > Source: U.S. Department of State > **[URI News](https://www.uri.edu/news/)** > > Featured Stories Events Headlines > [@](#): > > In Cuba, legislation effective August 1997, sets fines, prison sentences of 2 to 5 years, or up to 8 years for public health, education, tourism, law enforcement or government officials and confiscation of property for pimps, madams and those who rent space out for prostitution. (“Cuba to crack down on abettors of prostitution,” Reuters, 20 July 1997) > > Although there has been an increase in prostitution in Cuba, the women continue to be penalized. Cuba has revived an old law against vagrancy, using it against the women in prostitution who get three warnings before they have to face a sentence of up to eight years in prison. (Jeszs Zzqiga, “Cuba: The Thailand of the Caribbean” Independent Journalists’ Cooperative, 18 June 1998) [http://www.american.edu/TED/cubatour.htm](http://www.american.edu/TED/cubatour.htm) > [@](#): > > After his government saw that position was providing an economic advantage to those who either pimped or prostituted, Castro passed new laws in the late 1990s that criminalized the aiding of a prostitution. However, prostitution itself is legal. > > …many of Cuba’s prostitutes began selling their bodies as young as 12 years old. –yeah, I can see how somebody could squish it and mash it and pummel it and have it come out as “state-sponsored child prostitution”. Interesting technique. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/82 "2002-09-12T02:24:20Z")
A good friend of mine – a bleeding heart liberal – visited Cuba via Mexico recently. He’s a big defender of the Castro regime. He told me he saw the child prostitutes, and then went on to defend the practice, using an argument I have since forgotten. If you guys want to argue, that’s fine. That’s what GD is for. If you want to learn something, I suggest you read the book I cited. It’ll give you a great many facts about Cuba from a Latin American POV. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568331347/qid=1031796954/sr=12-1/102-8409469-8556925?v=glance&s=books](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568331347/qid=1031796954/sr=12-1/102-8409469-8556925?v=glance&s=books) **DDG** , if you are arguing that Castro finally stopped sponsoring child prostitution in the late 1990’s, that could be true. The book I cited was published a couple of years ago. Maybe things have changed very recently. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/83 "2002-09-12T07:22:59Z")
december, “a good friend of yours” is not a reliable source of anything. You have made the very grave accusation that the Cuban government has mandated child prostitution. This is a blatant **lie** and you have offered _nothing_ in support of it. There are plenty of murders in the US every day and that does not mean it is tolerated by the state, much less mandated. There is much drug use in the US and that does not mean it is tolerated or mandated by the authorities. I am very critical of the Cuban regime but liars like you only discredit my position. Please stop your lies and your distortions. Cuba has **never** tolerated, much less mandated, child prostitution. It is a **lie**. In any country with such level of poverty there is going to be some child prostitution (hell, it happens in rich countries) but even in Cuba it does not reach even a fraction of the level it does in the Philippines and other Asian and latin American countries whose governments enjoy the full support of the USA and whose customers come mainly from the USA. \>\> if you are arguing that Castro finally stopped sponsoring child prostitution in the late 1990’s, that could be true. This is the old “have you stopped beating your wife?” approach. december, have you stopped beating your wife? Just answer yes or no. Also, have jews stopped drinking the blood of children recently? You are a despicable fanatic and a liar. Cuba has _never_ mandated child prostitution and, in fact, has probably one of the lowest tolerances for this kind of thing in the world. Please provide credible evidence or retract that insult. Every time you are called on your lies and distortions you ignore half of what is said and you just distort the other half and wave your hands a lot and cite “a friend of mine”. I am sick and tired of this. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/84 "2002-09-12T07:36:19Z")
december, the fact that you read it in a book means nothing. Books are full of lies and probably much more in the case of the kind of books _you_ read. For every book you show me which says the Cuban government mandated child prostitution, I can show you dozens which say Jews are evil liars. For every person who believes the Cuban government mandates child prostitution I can show you dozens who believe Jews are the scum of the Earth. So let’s deal with reliable evidence and leave bias and propaganda aside. Where is the reliable evidence showing the Cuban government mandated child prostitution? Where are the edicts? How and when were they implemented? Any witnesses? Any parents whose child was taken from them? (I will note many children were stolen from their parents in Chile and Argentina by governments sponsored by the US). Where are these children now? I will also note you have not even addressed my other point that you maliciously distorted what I said. We used to have some pretty intelligent discussions around here before you arrived but now you spoil any thread in which you participate as it just becomes a rebuttal of your idiotic stupidity. i am pretty conservative in my point of view but I cringe at having you on my side of any argument. Why won’t you please just go away and leave us in peace? ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/85 "2002-09-12T12:04:46Z")
Does this december guy hold the record for the most Pit threads dedicated to him? I don’t really read thru them, but there seems to be a brand new one every week or 2 and they always go on for multiple pages. Has anyone come close to this guys Pit-ness? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/86 "2002-09-12T12:23:09Z")
december is a major pain in the ass. I have tangled with him in the past but now I just make a point of avoiding any threads where he is participating because they just turn to be a major waste of time where everyone can only try to point out his idiocy. He is a major disruption in every thread and in GD in general. I used to enjoy participating in many threads where now I just have to refrain because I do not want to be entangled in his idiocy. I made an exception when he accused Cuba’s government of forcing children into prostitution which is, clearly, a blatant lie. His response is “a friend told me and I read it in a book”. I truly do not understand why he has not been seriously warned or even banned because he is definitely a clear disruption here. I do not care about ideology but if you make an inflammatory assertion and your only support is “a friend told me and I read it in a book” then you are just disrupting an intelligent discussion other people are trying to have. By the way I have heard several people say and I have read it in books that Jews are evil. According to december I should believe this. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/87 "2002-09-12T13:36:24Z")
**Sailor** , I appeciate your attempt at self-parody. It lightened my morning. Your joke begins by arguing that a book is not evidence, even though it included an introduction vouching for it by the most famous Peruvian in the world. Mario Vargas Llosa. As we all know, Vargas Llosa is a world-renowned author and was a Presidential candidate. Your subtle humor at comparing this statesman to some antisemitic bigot was a laugh riot. A friend seeing the situation with his own eyes is not evidence. As the saying goes, \*What are you going to beleive? What **sailor** tells you or your own eyes? The punch line of the joke comes when you showed us what proper evidence looks like. Proper evidence is simply the application of the magic word “clearly.” That single word constitutes proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Proof of such perfection that anyone disagreeing ought to be Pitted, if not banned. What a card you are! I appreciate this sort of self-satire. Self-effacing modesty is all to rare on this message board. My only suggestion is that next time you do this, you not forget the smiley. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/88 "2002-09-12T15:13:29Z")
**december** , a book may be wrong. If it contradicts the rest of the known universe then it certainly _is_ wrong. Your friend may be wrong, he may be mistaken or he may be lying. It happens to you all the time and it can happen to your friend. He even may be non existant. All we have is your word that he exists and he said so. Can we question him? How did he gain knowledge that the practice was sponsored by the state? Who did he talk to? What are his sources? Can we ask him a few questions? I am quite certain his mistake or lie would be quite evident if we could question him. And, please, don’t tell us you have received many emails from unnamed people who side with you on this. Your friends imaginary or not are hearsay if not made up or distorted evidence. Bring him here so we can chat with him and question him. In the meanwhile that piece of evidence is worthless. \>\> What are you going to beleive? What sailor tells you or your own eyes? I _know_ Cuba you dumbbass! I have been to Cuba personally. I have friends there and I have Cuban friends in Florida and in Spain. A couple years ago a friend of mine in Spain helped a Cuban friend of ours escape from Cuba although his wife was left behind. She is waiting for her chance. They have clandestine access to email and ICQ and we communicate with them relatively often. For some months I had an ongoing relationship with a Cuban girl and the only way to communicate with her was by email through these friends. You think I do not know Cuba? What the fuck do _you_ know about Cuba? You read a book, but you won’t tell us what the book says. Just like president Bush we have to trust you when you say the evidence is damning. My guess is the book does not say what you say it says. My guess is you are lying like you often do. The book has an intro by Vargas Llosa. So what? I still don’t know what it says. It probably does not support your position at all. If it does, it is wrong as it contradicts all available evidence. The fact the Vargas LLosa wrote an intro means nothing. He may know the author and not much about the contents of the book. This is clearly a waste of time. You are asking us to take your word (that in itself is laughable) that you have a book that says what you say it says but you refuse to answer any concrete questions. We just have to take your word that the Cuban government forced children into prostitution. It’s in a book but the greatest opponents of Cuba, the US government and the Cuban expats, have never heard about this. huh? The readers of the thread can make up their own mind but if anybody has been convinced by your argumants I certainly would like to hear from them. I do not think I need to worry much about who of us has a better or worse reputation on this board or who will be dismissed as a fool. You know I have mostly chosen not to participate in any of your threads because I do not want to waste my time. The problem is you wreck many threads which would otherwise be interesting topics to participate in. You should be banned not for disagreeing with me or with anybody else but for being the jerk that you are. You have become a major disruption to intelligent exchanges in this board. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/89 "2002-09-12T18:26:00Z")
So, **sailor** you have been to Cuba and noticed all the child prostitutes? Strange because all these sources say there’s a lot of them: > [@](#): > > - Child prostitution is a problem, with young girls engaging in prostitution to help support themselves and their families. Young girls have constituted the bulk of the prostitutes catering primarily to foreign tourists. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000) > > - In Cuba, the new generation of prostituted women vary in age between 15-25, although children as young as 13 are also found. (CATW Fact Book, citing Jesus Zzqiga, “Cuba: The Thailand of the Caribbean”, Independent Journalists’ Cooperative, 18 June 1998) > > - Cuba has a well-documented child sex trade with the thriving sex tourism sector. (June Kane, Sold for Sex, Aren Ashgate Publising Limited Gower House, 1998) > > - It seems that many of the men who sexually exploit children are frequent visitors to Cuba, and it also appears that many of them fund their trips through smuggling. (ECPAT International, Julia O’Connell Davidson and Jacqueline Sanchez Taylor, Child Prostitution and Sex Tourism in Cuba, October 1995) > > - Cuba, considered to be free of prostitution since the 1960s, is experiencing an increase in prostitution and sex tourism as a result of the economic crisis. (CATW Fact Book, citing Jesus Zzqiga “Cuba: The Thailand of the Caribbean”, Independent Journalists’ Cooperative, 18 June 1998) > > - Sex workers have reported an increasing demand for adolescents and young girls. (ECPAT International) If you go the the [cite](http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/cuba.html), there are links for each of these reports for your further edification. Here’s another [cite](http://www.canf.org/Castrolobbywatch/castrolobbywatch-Feb6.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*A Canadian Woman Celebrates Cuba’s “Child Prostitution Chic” \*\* > In what may be the most craven portrayal yet of the exploitation of Cuban women and children by a female writer, Robyn Swanson of the Vancouver British Columbia, North Shore News, unabashedly celebrates prostitution on Castro’s island prison… > > Swanson dismisses the systemic tragedy of child prostitution in Cuba with a wink and a nod: “We may be in communist Cuba,” she says, “but boys will be boys.”… > According to Julia O’Connell Davidson, in her 1999 book , Prostitution, Power and Freedom: > > “We interviewed a fourteen-year-old child in Cuba who had migrated from a rural village to a tourist area because she so desperately wanted to own a pair of shoes and had heard it was possible to make money by ‘going with’ tourists.”… > > …Aktham Zuhair Salem Madanat, international child trafficker and pimp, who,… had this ringing endorsement for his “product”: > > “I can bring over seven girls right now from Cuba. …There are two young girls - one is 11. They are farm girls, very simple and easily controlled.” Then, there’s this from the New Republic – not a right wing source, to say the least. > [@](#): > > **"Strapped for hard currency after the fall of the Soviet Union, Cuba opened up to capitalism a little–and used its women as bait. The ministry of tourism embarked on a global marketing campaign advertising the splendor of the country’s revolutionary mulattas:** it invited Playboy to photograph an issue on location and distributed posters of beaches with white sand and topless Cubanas to travel agencies worldwide. > The government referred to the women as “promoters of tourism.” This [site](http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/IssueBriefSexTourism.htm) includes similar quotes from numerous other sources, **sailor** , all this and more was easily available from google. I await your apology. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/90 "2002-09-12T19:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **So, sailor you have been to Cuba and noticed all the child prostitutes? Strange because all these sources say there’s a lot of them:** Ah, the patented **december** back-pedal and twist! You bonehead! He didn’t say there were no child prostitutes in Cuba. He said that the presence of child prostitutes doesn’t imply state sponsorship. He said it multiple times, in fact. You’re being deliberately obtuse, although I’m sure it surprises no one. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/91 "2002-09-12T19:16:18Z")
\>\> I await your apology You are a fucking idiot aren’t you? Not one single cite supports your assertion that the Cuban government mandated or even condoned child prostitution. The fact that it exists does not mean it is mandated or condoned by the government. Huge numbers of people use drugs in America and that does not mean it is mandated or condoned by the government. The numbers for child prostitution are far worse in Costa Rica and other countries which the US supports than in Cuba which the US opposes. Go take a long walk off a short pier and quit wasting our time. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/92 "2002-09-12T19:20:44Z")
**december, sailor** did not deny that child prositution exists in Cuba. Hell it exists in the US. There was a child prositution ring here in Lansing MI that was busted up about a year ago. **however** you claimed that it was **state sponsored** , that the gov. of Cuba, instead of attempting to disuade it, was promoting it, etc etc etc. this is the claim that requires back up. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/93 "2002-09-12T19:33:19Z")
The worst part with december is that you go to read his links and not only do they not support him but they often contradict him. In all those links I did not find one single sentence saying the government mandates or condones child prostitution. Not one single sentence. december quotes some phrases indicating there is prostitution and to a much lesser degree child prostitution but he avoids quoting things like “[the number of child victims is smaller than other countries in the region](http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/cuba.html)”. \>\> Strapped for hard currency after the fall of the Soviet Union, Cuba opened up to capitalism a little–and used its women as bait If this is a crime all ad agency executives would be in jail. Women are used to sell beer, cars and anything else men buy, in the US and everywhere except Saudi Arabia where I would like to see your ass. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/94 "2002-09-12T20:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \ ***however** you claimed that it was **state sponsored** , that the gov. of Cuba, instead of attempting to disuade it, was promoting it, etc etc etc. > > this is the claim that requires back up. \*\* **wring** , that point was covered in several of my cites, and was covered in a quote from the New Republic. If one wants to be picky, my cites showed – Extensive government support for and promotion of prostitution – Extensive child prostitution It’s true that my cited links didn’t explicitly show extensive government support for child prostitution. (although the book I cited does do that.) However, the two points above more-or-less add up to the combination. (In theory, Cuba could have promoted adult prostitution, but fought child prostitution. However, they evidently didn’t do that. If they had done so, Cuba woudn’t be famous for the availability of child prostitutes.) **Ferrous** , I would ask you to read the cites in more detail. The Cuban government conducted an international campaign promoting tourism based on their prostitutes. Obviously they were well aware that many of the prostitutes they boasted of were children. **sailor** , when Cuba avertised internationally for tourists to make use of their prostitutes, I’d call it a lot more than just “condoning.” I do agree with you that, “Women are used to sell beer, cars and anything else men buy…” However, Cuba used women to sell women and girls and boys. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/95 "2002-09-12T20:36:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \ ***however** you claimed that it was **state sponsored** , that the gov. of Cuba, instead of attempting to dissuade it, was promoting it, etc etc etc. > > this is the claim that requires back up. \*\* **wring** , that point was extensively covered in several of the cites in my previous post, including the segment quoted from the New Republic. I will admit that “state sponsored” was not as accurate a phrase as “state promoted” or “state encouraged.” AFAIK the prostitutes don’t actually work for Cuba. (However, I wonder whether the Cuban government receives a cut of their income. **Does anyone know whether there is a tax or some other mechanism by which the state gets a share?** ) Several of my cites showed – Extensive government encouragement and promotion of prostitution – Extensive child prostitution It’s true that my cited links didn’t specifically show extensive government promotion of _child prostitution_. (although the book I cited does do that.) However, the two points above more-or-less add up to the combination. (In theory, Cuba could have promoted adult prostitution, but fought child prostitution. However, they evidently didn’t do that. If they had done so, Cuba wouldn’t be famous for the availability of child prostitutes.) Let’s face it; Cuba set out to be another Bangkok. Adult prostitutes are unfortunately widely available in every country. Tourists don’t travel thousands of miles just to patronize a prostitute. It takes a special attraction. **Ferrous** , I would ask you to read the cites in more detail. The Cuban government conducted an international campaign promoting tourism based on their prostitutes. Obviously they were well aware that many of the prostitutes (of whom they were so proud) were children. **sailor** , when Cuba advertised internationally for tourists to come and make use of their prostitutes, I’d call it a lot more than just “condoning.” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/96 "2002-09-12T20:53:48Z")
**bullshit** Perhaps some one with another language can communicate effectively w/mr. **december**. He seems to still labor under the delusion that he’s supported his claim that Cuba encourages child prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/97 "2002-09-12T21:16:59Z")
The U.S. State Department’s [Country Reports on Human Rights Practices](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/wha/8333.htm) has this to say about it: > [@](#): > > There was no societal pattern of abuse of children. However, child prostitution was a problem, with young girls engaging in prostitution to help support themselves and their families. It is illegal for a person under 17 years of age to engage in prostitution. The police began to enforce this law more actively in late 1998 and continued to do so during the year as part of a general crackdown on prostitution. However, the phenomenon continued as more cabarets and discos open for the growing tourist industry, which made it easier for tourists to come into contact with child prostitutes. Clearly it’s a problem. You could argue, as you now seem to be doing, that the government isn’t doing enough to stop it, or even that its policies _indirectly_ encourage it. But to go from there to saying the government sponsors it, as you originally did, O master backpeddler, is to distort the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/98 "2002-09-12T21:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*Perhaps some one with another language can communicate effectively w/mr. **december**. \*\* Even if you could find someone fluent in the language of december’s home planet there is no arguing with the personification of tabloid journalism run amok. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/99 "2002-09-12T22:13:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\ ***wring** , that point was covered in several of my cites, and was covered in a quote from the New Republic. > > If one wants to be picky, my cites showed > > – Extensive government support for and promotion of prostitution > \*\* Conceeded. Prostitution is not illegal in Cuba(but oddly enough, aiding prostitution is. The distinction seems to be analogus to busting pimps, but not hookers. This might be laudable because often the worst side of prostitution is the exploitation of the prostitute by their “agent”, or involvement by organized crime, mileage, however, obviously varies). The degree of government support for it seems debatable as does the amount of emphasis the practice is given in the promotional materials aimed at tourists. > [@](#): > > \*\* > – Extensive child prostitution > > It’s true that my cited links didn’t explicitly show extensive government support for child prostitution. (although the book I cited does do that.) However, the two points above more-or-less add up to the combination. \*\* No. This is yet another fallacy. The Fallacy of the Excluded Middle in this case. [http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#isatype](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#isatype) > [@](#): > > These fallacies occur if you attempt to argue that things are in some way similar, but you don’t actually specify in what way they are similar. Example: > > “Cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry, dogs are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry, so aren’t dogs a form of cat?” You have failed to show the connection between legal and semi-endorsed(I’ll argue the point of the extent of state support in a moment) ADULT prostitution and illegal, underground, CHILD prostitution. You are now backpedaling away from the word “mandated” aren’t you? You realize that is too ridiculous for even a naieve observer to buy into. > [@](#): > > \*\*(In theory, Cuba could have promoted adult prostitution, but fought child prostitution. However, they evidently didn’t do that. If they had done so, Cuba woudn’t be famous for the availability of child prostitutes.) \*\* I would argue that this is EXACTLY what they did. The fact that it hasn’t worked as well as they may have hoped is not evidence of intent to increase the amount of child prostitution. If the Cuban authorities WANTED to have child prostitution would they have made the age of consent 16? Why are there laws in Cuba which specify prostitutes, who can legally sell their services, must be at least 16? Allow ME to give a cite. I doubt you’ll actually bother reading it because you seem to have made up your mind. Quite frankly I don’t care if you choose to remain ignorant or not, this is for any lurkers who may have doubts about Cuba authorities stance on child prostitution. [http://www.ageofconsent.com/cuba.htm](http://www.ageofconsent.com/cuba.htm) > [@](#): > > I’m a 42 year old Canadian businessman from Toronto who visited Cuba in December 2000. I had an encounter with the police over a girl(Dora)who was 14 years of age. > > I had rented a car for my one week stay and had picked up both Dora and her mother hitchhiking on the outskirts of Havana. She was very pretty and flirty. When asked when said she was 17 yrs old. I assumed everything over 16 yrs was fair game and arranged for a dinner date later that evening. I picked her up in front of Havana City Hall where her mother sees her off and says, “have a nice date!” After dinner one thing leads to another and we are in a industrial park (for privacy) necking in my car half undressed when 2 policemen happen upon us and start asking for ID, passports, car rental documents, etc from both Dora and myself. > > After 2 hours of listening to radio calls back and forth from these two cops to their superiors we are asked to follow them in our car to their police station. Once there, I’m separated from Dora and told she is 14! The little sneak with her mother an accomplice, had lied and only the fact no intercourse had taken place, and the fact that the police didn’t believe she told the truth saved me from a stay in a Cuban jail. > … > Cuba’s age of consent is 16. Here is a breakdown of some of the laws. > … > Having sexual relations with a woman between 12 and 16 years old, 3 mos-1 year in prison ( **Mtgman’s note:** this is for non-rape cases. One might argue that any sex with women between 12 and 16 is rape, but Cuban laws do not enforce that. The penalties for rape or “actively employing violence or intimidation” for women under 16 are considerably more severe. [/note]) > … > Corruption of Minors > He that induces a minor under 16 years into prostitution, homosexual acts, or pornography, two to five years in prison. Three months to a year for anyone who has sex in front of anyone under 16 years or knowingly does not inform authorities when a minor is induced. That doesn’t sound like a country that has “mandated child prostitution” to me. Can I see a show of hands of who thinks this means that the Cuban government “mandated child prostitution”? _crickets_ Thought so. > [@](#): > > \*\ ***Ferrous** , I would ask you to read the cites in more detail. The Cuban government conducted an international campaign promoting tourism based on their prostitutes. Obviously they were well aware that many of the prostitutes they boasted of were children. \*\* I’d like a scan of a travel brocure or poster, issued by the Cuban Ministry of Tourism, showing a price schedule, or a promise of sex for pay and a picture of an obviously-underage person. The “obviously-underage” bit is important. After all, if it’s not obvious then we can’t be sure that’s the message they meant to send right? If you can’t provide this, and it wouldn’t take long to scan a single page of this “book” you have and post it if that is the evidence you have, then you should retract this claim and offer apologies to those you have inconvenienced by forcing them to dispel the ignorance you are spewing. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I do agree with you that, “Women are used to sell beer, cars and anything else men buy…” However, Cuba used women to sell women and girls and boys. \*\* I need a cite for the “girls and boys” bit. Women I won’t contend. The scanned image I spoke of earlier should do nicely. I’ll put it right next to the memo from Janet Reno’s office telling the agents who were in charge of retrieving Elian Gonzales to injure reporters and damage their equipment to ensure no records were made of their illegal activities. Thanks for providing that memo in support of an earlier outrageous claim you made by the way. Oh wait, you didn’t. You had no evidence then, you have none now. Take a seat **december**. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/100 "2002-09-13T00:25:54Z")
Cuba has never advertised prostitution. I have seen their ads and thay show scantily clad women on the beach or performing in the cabarets. It is the same type of publicity that you see for Las Vegas or for the beaches in Southern Europe. december continues to ignore the fact that the report says there is less child prostitution in Cuba than in the rest of the countries of the area. He continues to equivocate between adult prostitution and child prostitution december _everybody_ here but you understands what I am saying. Not one single person is buying your arguments. I do not know why I even waste my time with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=6)