# Dear December, you ignorant f\*\*\*! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957 "2002-09-04T14:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/121 "2002-09-13T17:11:22Z")
I have seen Cuban ads and flyers showing cabaret girls and beach scenes with pretty and scantily clad women but in no way do they suggest prostitution They were not done by the Cuban government directly but by foreign ad agencies who do the same type of ads for other destinations or by the organizing tour operators themselves. You can see similar brochures and ad campaigns for many other destinations in the Caribbean and in Southern Europe. Puritanical Americans may be surprised by this but in Europe this type of thing is quete normal and nobody thinks they are advertising for prostitution and if anyone thought that everybody would think he’s nuts. december sounds like some Arab who leaves his country for the first time and lands in America and, seeing how the women do not cover themselves like in Arabia, concludes all American women a whores. Why else would they expose themselves like that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/122 "2002-09-13T17:25:10Z")
**december** , do you really not know? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/123 "2002-09-13T17:27:36Z")
Mtgman, nobody has said there is NO prostitution of any kind in Cuba but that child prostitution is definitely not condoned by the government. I think we agree on that one. Now, for the levels of child and adult prostitution that Cuba does have it is well below that of similar countries in the area. Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic are two places that come to mind which have much higher levels (not to mention the Philippines and other places in SE Asia). To accuse the Cuban government of complicity when the levels they have are lower than in similar countries is just silly. There are plenty of poor countries where people from rich countries go for prostitution and Cuba happens to be a poor country but there is not a shred of evidence showing the government condones child prostitution. Personally I feel the people of these countries are victims more than anything else and it is the people of the rich countries who are at fault. I cannot blame a starving woman for resorting to prostitution to stay alive and feed her family. I respect her more than I respect the guy who takes advantage of her situation. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/124 "2002-09-13T17:30:30Z")
**sailor** , I was relying on the report from the Ottawa Citizen. If you have a complaint, please take it up with them. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/125 "2002-09-13T17:31:55Z")
**december** A. see **sailors** point re: Cuban’s advertising, as well as **Mtgmans’** observations (IOW, CUBA itself does not seem to be sponsoring it, except in your eyes) and of course, ignoring the absolute final truth: Adult prostitution is not the same as child prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/126 "2002-09-13T17:37:44Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by sailor \*There are plenty of poor countries where people from rich countries go for prostitution and Cuba happens to be a poor country but there is not a shred of evidence showing the government condones child prostitution. Personally I feel the people of these countries are victims more than anything else and it is the people of the rich countries who are at fault. I cannot blame a starving woman for resorting to prostitution to stay alive and feed her family. I respect her more than I respect the guy who takes advantage of her situation. [QUOTE] I agree that the people of Cuba are victims, and that certain of the rich are at fault. In particular, billionaire Fidel Castro is at fault for running a terrible government and for taking so much wealth for his personal use. Cuba doesn’t just “happen to be a poor country.” It was one of the more prosperous countries in Latin America 50 years ago. Castro’s government made Cuba a poor country. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/127 "2002-09-13T17:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I doubt that they advertise in Mercia, because it’s illegal for us Mercans to visit Cuba.** Wrong. It’s legal to visit but typical US citizens are not allowed to spend money there. > [@](#): > > [US State Dept.](http://travel.state.gov/cuba.html) **Cuba - Consular Information Sheet** > > The following categories of travelers are permitted to spend money for Cuban travel and to engage in other transactions directly incident to the purpose of their travel under a general license, without the need to obtain special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department: > > - U.S. and foreign government officials traveling on official business, including representatives of international organizations of which the U.S. is a member; > > - Journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel regularly employed by a news reporting organization; > > - Persons making a once-a-year visit to close family relatives in circumstances of humanitarian need; > > - Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to professional research in their professional areas, provided that their research : (1) is of a noncommercial academic nature; (2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba, and (3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination; > > - Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to attendance at professional meetings or conferences in Cuba organized by an international professional organization, institution, or association that regularly sponsors such meetings or conferences in other countries; > > - Amateur or semi-professional athletes or teams traveling to Cuba to participate in an athletic competition held under the auspices of the relevant international sports federation. > > The Department of the Treasury may issue licenses on a case-by-case basis authorizing Cuba travel-related transactions directly incident to marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied delivery, and servicing of exports and reexports that appear consistent with the licensing policy of the Department of Commerce. The sectors in which U.S. citizens may sell and service products to Cuba include agricultural commodities, telecommunications activities, medicine, and medical devices. The Treasury Department will also consider requests for specific licenses for humanitarian travel not covered by the general license, educational exchanges, and religious activities by individuals or groups affiliated with a religious organization. > > Unless otherwise exempted or authorized, any person subject to U.S. jurisdiction who engages in any travel-related transaction in Cuba violates the regulations. Persons not licensed to engage in travel-related transactions may travel to Cuba without violating the regulations only if all Cuba-related expenses are covered by a person not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and provided that the traveler does not provide any service to Cuba or a Cuban national. Such travel is called “fully-hosted” travel. Such travel may not by made on a Cuban carrier or aboard a direct flight between the United States and Cuba. > > Failure to comply with Department of Treasury regulations may result in civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/128 "2002-09-13T17:43:58Z")
I did a Net search looking for travel to Cuba. **december** , can you please find any web sites in which the Cuban authorities even hint they offer child prostitution? I could not find any that even hinted at adult prostitution. Sun, beaches, music, handicrafts, yes. Sex, no. **december** , Please give us just a sample. A web site, a brochure. You can’t can you? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/129 "2002-09-13T17:46:39Z")
Psst, **december** : Mercia was a kingdom in what is now England. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/130 "2002-09-13T17:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december \* > sailor_\*, I was relying on the report from the Ottawa Citizen. If you have a complaint, please take it up with them. \*\* No, you were relying on a [report](http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/IssueBriefSexTourism.htm) that has an edited quote from the Ottawa Citizen. The accuracy of that quote is questionable because the site it’s on has a decidedly anti-Castro/anti-communism bent. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/131 "2002-09-13T17:54:37Z")
nice catch **Jeff** , now our audience, if they’re clever, noted the trademark **december** post wherein he quotes his adversary, seems to agree w/the point but instead makes a sharp right turn to yet another irrelevant hijack, without, of course, addressing the point (Cuba is poor, why yes, because of that dastardly guy Castro…) (prediction, he’ll cite this one and clammor ‘how can it be irrelevant why these poor women are so destitute that they sell their bodies and their children’s bodies??’) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/132 "2002-09-13T17:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > **Jeff Olsen** > Wrong. It’s legal to visit but typical US citizens are not allowed to spend money there. Interesting distinction, Jeff. Still, not being allowed to spend money there would make Americans undesirable customers for sex tourism. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/133 "2002-09-13T17:57:52Z")
I can say there are _plenty_ of Americans in Cuba. I have seen them. I found a [website](http://www.cubatravelusa.com/) which promotes tourism to Cuba from the US and along with a hundred other things (beaches, culture, etc) talks about the “nightlife” wanting to imply you can be sure you’ll get lucky there. It has a photo of a cabaret girl and > [@](#): > > The Cuban government does not want Cuba to be known as a place for “sex tourism”. But that image is hard to change because sex and gambling are exactly what Cuba was most known for prior to the Castro era. The Castro government has tried hard to control those kinds of activities, but for the most part they just move down the street or around the corner. So, where’s the child sex? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/134 "2002-09-13T17:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **Mtgman, nobody has said there is NO prostitution of any kind in Cuba but that child prostitution is definitely not condoned by the government. I think we agree on that one. Now, for the levels of child and adult prostitution that Cuba does have it is well below that of similar countries in the area. Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic are two places that come to mind which have much higher levels (not to mention the Philippines and other places in SE Asia). To accuse the Cuban government of complicity when the levels they have are lower than in similar countries is just silly.** Agreed, and I’m not going to debate **december’s** opinion that the government is encouraging it. My post was actually meant to provide some more insight into why child prostitution is an issue in Cuba. It’s an example of another event which we can show correlation with the rise of child prostitution in Cuba but can’t prove causation. **december** opines the Cuban government is supporting child prostitution and that support has given rise to the problem as it exists today. I put forth the opinion that the crackdown in Thailand caused paedophiles to look elsewhere for their fix and the baser elements in Cuba, and elsewhere, provided. Neither of these opinions is fact, as the discerning reader is no doubt aware. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/135 "2002-09-13T18:24:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Interesting distinction, Jeff. Still, not being allowed to spend money there would make Americans undesirable customers for sex tourism. \*\* Note that I said _typical_. With some caveats, it’s perfectly legal for the following Americans to spend money in Cuba: government officials traveling on official business, journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel, persons making a once-a-year visit to close family relatives in circumstances of humanitarian need, full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to professional research in their professional areas, full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to attendance at professional meetings or conferences in Cuba organized by an international professional organization, and amateur or semi-professional athletes or teams traveling to Cuba. You would have seen all of this in my cite above if you had bothered to read it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/136 "2002-09-13T18:33:59Z")
Uh, **Jeff** , I was making a _joke_. You know, about the John whose excuse for not paying is that payment would violate US law. Anyhow, there seems to be little effort to enforce this law. Good friends of mine travelled to Cuba without US permission. They simply went to Mexico and then bought a ticket to Cuba. They certainly spent money there. Since one of the couple is a prominent psychiatrist, she wouldn’t have taken the risk if she thought there was a significant chance of being arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/137 "2002-09-13T18:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Uh, **Jeff** , I was making a _joke_. You know, about the John whose excuse for not paying is that payment would violate US law. > > Anyhow, there seems to be little effort to enforce this law.\*\* Wrong. [http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/08/23/cuba.us.travelban/](http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/08/23/cuba.us.travelban/) Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/138 "2002-09-13T18:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Uh, Jeff, I was making a _joke_. > _snipped the december two-step_** Sure you were. Hard to tell given your penchant for ignoring cites that disagree with you and the fact that there was no smiley. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/139 "2002-09-13T19:56:24Z")
Here’s a site which says that prostitution, including child prostitution by both girls and boys, increased rapidly, while the authorities “turned a blind eye.” However, the Update says things had turned around dramatically by 1999. > [@](#): > > All this began to change with the collapse of the Soviet Bloc…and the end of trade with there. Cuba fell on hard times and the US Blockade began to hurt the economy. > > Once again, young men and women took to the streets to work the tourist. > > By 1995, one could not stroll the streets of Old Havana without being accosted by young men and young women. > > In 1998, jinetera (prostitutes) were very aggressive around tourist hotels. Very young and very beautiful young women dressed in cocktail dresses stood station waiting for the custom of men who fly in from Spain, the Bahamas, North America, Japan and other countries with alienated gender relations and discretionary income. > > The Cuban Government and City Police turn a blind eye to this form of human degradation. Dollars from customers bring a month’s wages in an hour. > > Tourist hotels, bars, restaurants and craft shops benefit from the trade in human sexuality. > > UPDATE: 1999 > > Friends of Cuba and the Cuban Revolution will be glad to know that the epidemic of prostitution which infected the streets and souls of Cuban social life has all but disappeared from the streets of Havana. [http://www.tryoung.com/CUBA/crime-prostitution.html](http://www.tryoung.com/CUBA/crime-prostitution.html) Here’s a reference to a documentary movie that covers, > [@](#): > > …government-sanctioned harassment of the children of dissidents, and the promotion of child prostitution. [http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whattopics.htm](http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whattopics.htm) I do not know what the date of this movie is. It may well be the case that the Cuban government was “turning a blind eye” to child prostitution or even “promoting” it, but they have changed their policy and it has now “all but disappeared.” I hope it has now all but disappeared. P.S. this US government State Dept.[site](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/wha/8333.htm) indicates that the Cuban crackdown on prostitution began in 1998. > [@](#): > > Prostitution has increased greatly in the last few years. Press reports indicated that tourists from various countries visited specifically to patronize inexpensive prostitutes. A government crackdown on prostitution that began in late 1998 initially had some effect, but prostitutes (known as “jineteras”) still were visible in Havana and other major cities during the year. Police obtained early success in their efforts by stationing officers on nearly every major street corner where tourists were present. Some street police officers were suspected of providing protection to the jineteras. Most observers believe that the Government clamped down on prostitution to combat the perception that the Government promotes sex tourism. The Government set up centers to take prostitutes off the streets and reeducate them. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/140 "2002-09-13T20:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > In 1998, jinetera (prostitutes) were very aggressive around tourist hotels. Very young and very beautiful young women dressed in cocktail dresses stood station… You’re assuming that “very young” means “children.” > [@](#): > > government-sanctioned harassment of the children of dissidents, and the promotion of child prostitution. Promotion by whom? The Cuban government may have been harrasing them but this does not mean the government’s been promoting child prosititution. BTW: yes, that State Dept. site mentions that the Cuban government has been cracking down on prostitution but I can’t find anything about them sponsoring child prostitution. Forcing children to work on farms, but not prostitution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=8)