# Dear December, you ignorant f\*\*\*! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957 "2002-09-04T14:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/141 "2002-09-13T21:04:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > You’re assuming that “very young” means “children.” Yes, it does. The last sentence in that cite says, > [@](#): > > Things are better in 1999. So some structural change along with some policing seem to have cleared the streets of all the beautiful children selling themselves for the tourist dollar. > [@](#): > > **Jeff** > Promotion by whom? The Cuban government may have been harrasing them but this does not mean the government’s been promoting child prosititution. As a point of logic, I agree with you. The use of the passive voice makes it unclear who was (allegedly) promoting child prostitution. However, within the context of the paragraph, it seems likely that they _were_ referring to the government, since the government is the only institution referred to in that paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/142 "2002-09-13T21:21:20Z")
“passive voice”, ‘promoted vs.encouraged vs. not done enough to eliminate vs. turned a blind eye’. hmmm. Seems that we’ve backpeddled quite a bit from your original “State sponsored” theory. are you back in Kansas yet? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/143 "2002-09-13T21:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Things are better in 1999. So some structural change along with some policing seem to have cleared the streets of all the beautiful children selling themselves for the tourist dollar. I must admit that I missed that. However, “children” is a relative term and does not necessarily mean “underage.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/144 "2002-09-13T21:32:52Z")
Heh. Pun most definately not intended. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/145 "2002-09-13T21:42:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Here’s a reference to a documentary movie that covers, [http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whattopics.htm](http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whattopics.htm) I do not know what the date of this movie is.** Your ability to selectively read only what you want to is astonishing. If one follows the very link you provided there is a navigation bar on the left side of the page. One of the links is “WHEN was it released?” which leads to this page. [http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whenwas.htm](http://www.cubanchildren.org/english/whenwas.htm) which plainly says > [@](#): > > The premiere was on February 24, 2001, selected as part of the FIU Miami Film Festival So, how do you do it? Did you google for Cuba “promotion of child prostitution” and copy-paste your cites from the search results page? Do you ever read past a point you could use in your own brand of propaganda or do you simply copy-paste and then fire off yet another nonsense post that proves nothing? Books have agendas. Documentaries have agendas. Op-Ed pages have agendas. Sources with agendas are not as credible as pure facts. I quote pure facts whenever possible, as I did with my statement on Cuban law earlier. The full description that you snipped from reads(all emphasis is preserved from the original site) > [@](#): > > **The tragic reality of children in Cuba today - as told on camera by the children victims themselves, eyewitnesses, and experts.** The experiences of Cuban children from birth and on towards adolescence and adulthood: the fears of living under an **oppressive totalitarian regime** , the lack of illusions and dreams, the extinction of the “family nucleus”, the conflicts between school and home, the obligatory attendance at age 12 at schools in the countryside to do agricultural **forced labor** , and the **lack of freedom of thought** , expression and religion. Among other topics: educational and career opportunities for youth depend on the loyalty of the child and his family to the government; the myths of the free health care system, and the double-standard of state-of-the-art facilities for tourists/foreigners and decaying hospitals for “the people” where often children get below-standard medical care; children grow up as “second class citizens” in an **apartheid system where foreigners get preferential status** ; government-sanctioned **harassment of the children of dissidents** , and the promotion of **child prostitution**. Yep, definitely an objective account with no bias evident. This documentary seems tailor-made to piss off Americans and raise sentiment against Cuba. A goal worthy of airtime if ever I saw one. Congratulations **december** you’ve found someone who agrees with your OPINION. That still doesn’t make it a fact. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/146 "2002-09-13T23:04:29Z")
**december** , in what countries exactly has Cuba been advertising and promoting for child prostitution? I would like to know in what country on this planet it is allowed to advertise for child sex. Pray tell. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/147 "2002-09-14T03:23:06Z")
**sailor** , that’s a nice question. However, I’m basically finished providing cites here. We’ve looked at quite a few cites, and, I think I have come to a better understanding of what occurred in Cuba. As for the advertising, this question doesn’t just apply to Havana. One way or another Bangkok became noted for providing child prostitution. Whether it was word of mouth or what, I don’t know, but the message sure got out there. No doubt there are experts in that field who understand how to promote that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/148 "2002-09-14T06:23:43Z")
**december** , you are avoiding the issue. YOU made the assertion that the Cuban government promoted Cuba as a child prostitution destination. Where is the evidence for this extremly grave and unlikely accusation? What countries are we talking about? What country would even allow it? Quit muddling things and answer those questions. You made the assertion and it is up to you to support it. You have NO proof of this because it never happened. You are beeing dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/149 "2002-09-14T12:19:42Z")
**sailor** , I provided cites which supported my statement. You are free to disbelieve them if you consider the accusation “unlikely”. I am curious. Why do you consider it unlikely? What is your basis for that a priori belief? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/150 "2002-09-14T12:40:43Z")
IT’s quite unusual for **any** country to advertise/promote that which they also consider illegal. In fact, I can’t think of a single example, which was why we were all on you so quickly for asserting that Cuba was doing exactly that. And, while you’ve supported the fact that CUba, along w/many other countries in the world : A. have a problem w/child prostitution and B: promote themselves in some fashion looking for tourist trade, we’ve not seen a **single example** of Cuba “promoting child prositituion” (which of course is your original assertion) So, what we’re all looking for here is for you to either (pick one or the other) 1. **prove** your original assertion that Cuba, the nation, ‘promotes’ child prositution. or 1. **admit you were wrong**. Your later words suggesting that ‘well, maybe not promoting, but more like endorsing, well maybe not endorsing but more encouraging, well maybe …’ do not cut it. You were **flat out wrong** in your original assertion. what **does** seem to be true is that CUba, like many other countries has a problem and is struggling to find the best way to fix the problem. This isn’t anywhere **near** to promoting, advocating, advertising, endorsing, encourageing or any of the other terms you’ve used. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/151 "2002-09-14T13:02:11Z")
**wring** , I pasted a cite above which specifically said that Cuba had promoted child prostitution. I referred to another cite in a best-selling book which said the same thing. As for promoting what was illegal, I provided a couple of cites which explained that Cuba had promoted prostitution and child prostitution in the economic downturn following the breakup of the Soviet Union. However, beginning around 1998, the cites say, Cuba made a determined effort to oppose child prostitution. According to one of the cites, that effort was very successful. I will quibble with another comment > [@](#): > > It’s quite unusual for any country to advertise/promote that which they also consider illegal. AFAIK it’s all too usual for tyrannies to follow the trappings of democracy and to have laws on the books that don’t represent the reality of how they’re governed. Cuba, in particular, is a wonderful place to live based on what’s written. However, the reality is the opposite. Since Castro took power, something like 20% of the population has fled to to other Latin American nations and to the US. Even in America, institutions such as cities, universities, etc. have plenty of situtations where policy in practice differs dramatically from what’s written. E.g. when I was a college student in the 1960’s the actual policy in Chicago was a requirement to pay a bribe to building inspectors and restaurant inspectors. Obviously this practice was officially prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/152 "2002-09-14T13:11:46Z")
you posted something that \*\*said \*\* “Cuba promotes child prostitution”. that ain’t the same thing as proving the Cuba **does**. Otherwise, I could simply post a link to this thread and say ‘voila’, verily tis true, since some one here says it is. Proof that Cuba does promote it would be a link to some document, web site, advertisement, law, etc wherin Cuba says “pedophiles, come visit Cuba, we have plenty kiddies for yew!” . Practice vs. law is understood. I still maintain that you will **not** find an example where a legal entity such as a nation will simultaneously promote (advertise, endorse etc.) **and** prosecute the exact same activity. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/153 "2002-09-14T13:36:16Z")
\>\> I am curious. Why do you consider it unlikely? What is your basis for that a priori belief? **december** , there is plenty of evidence that Cuba does not condone child prostitution but EVEN IF IT DID, AVAN IF CUBA WANTED to promote it abroad, how could it do it? In what country could they legally advertise this? YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THIS QUESTION. In what countries and how did they do it? Don’t you see that what you are saying is utterly ridiculous because we would have to believe not only that Cuba would do something in contradiction to everything it does but also OTHER COUNTRIES would have to break their laws also. How the fuck can you believe such stupidity which flies in the face of all logic? AGAIN, what countries allowed this promotion? WHAT COUNTRIES? Can you hear me? What countries? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/154 "2002-09-14T13:58:05Z")
December, how old are you? I’ve heard that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. At the amazing rate that you don’t learn, you must be 1000. Case in point, Cuba Child prostitution. Quit adding to this monument of your ignorance, chumpsey! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/155 "2002-09-14T15:08:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \*I still maintain that you will **not** find an example where a legal entity such as a nation will simultaneously promote (advertise, endorse etc.) **and** prosecute the exact same activity. Needle exchange? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/156 "2002-09-14T15:17:28Z")
a needle exchange is **not** promoting drug use. Needles are used for many things. Check into the word “promoting”. and you again avoided admitting that (shouting mode) **you are wrong** re: CUba ‘promoting’ child prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/157 "2002-09-14T15:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > and you again avoided admitting that (shouting mode) **you are wrong** re: CUba ‘promoting’ child prostitution. Right, because I supplied two cites saying that they were. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/158 "2002-09-14T15:48:03Z")
\>\> two cites saying that they were And we have supplied many more and more reliable showing it would make no sense and EVEN IF THEY WANTED THEY COULD NOT DO IT UNLESS THE OTHER COUNTRIES ALLOWED IT! How was it done and what countries allowed it? You refuse to confront the obvious issue which makes your theory impossible. You are worse than the moon landing conspiracy people. Please give us details about this promotion in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/159 "2002-09-14T17:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*\>\> two cites saying that they were > > And we have supplied many more and more reliable showing it would make no sense and EVEN IF THEY WANTED THEY COULD NOT DO IT UNLESS THE OTHER COUNTRIES ALLOWED IT! \*\* You have? > [@](#): > > How was it done? Let’s try an analogy. Prositution is illegal in most states. So, it cannot be advertised or promoted, right? No. Just open up your yellow pages to “Escort Services.” Escort services would be legal if that was all they did. Readers of the Yellow Pages know what they really can get from escort services. Could Cuba do an advertising campaign that would have the effect of promoting the availability of child prostitution. but without explicitly mentioning it? It’s certainly imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957/160 "2002-09-14T18:08:46Z")
“Could” you asserted “Did”. and apparently I again have to remind you that I spoke of a “State action” since that was what you claimed. If it’s as easy as you claim here for Cuba to do so, then why, oh why, have you been singularly unable to produce for us (despite begging, pleading and swearing) **a single specific example of CUba advertising that child prostitution is available in their country** (in addition, Escort services if they **clearly** advertise prosititution in places where it’s illegal do in fact get busted, certainly you are aware that people involved in criminal enterprises generally don’t specifically advertise that, eh?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-december-you-ignorant-f/126957.md?page=9)