# Dear El Presidente Obama, a minor point of etiquette **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586 "2009-11-14T20:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/61 "2009-11-15T06:45:15Z")
Look, if Obama really wanted to show subservience to the Japanese, he’d strip down and allow their tentacle monster to rape him. As it were, Bush spent eight years on his back splayed out naked with twelve and a half inches of Saudi sandworm tunneling up his ass. Until footage of Obama in Kenyan camel-orgies, Nobel Committee enema-clinics in Sweden or catheterized Florentine servants pissing white wine down his throat surfaces, I’m going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/62 "2009-11-15T06:46:46Z")
I don’t care about Obama bowing, but it is kind of embarrassing that he botched it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/63 "2009-11-15T06:48:45Z")
[John Hurt as Caligula]'Between you and me I had them either way… if he _hadn’t_ bowed I’d have blogged that he bowed to the Saudi king but not to Japanese one…\* Obama’s the original “If he walked on water his critics would swear he couldn’t swim” kid. > [@cckerberos](#): > > I don’t care about Obama bowing, but it is kind of embarrassing that he botched it. As an American I can barely hold my head up. Oooh wait- I guess I’m bowing… As long as he doesn’t sniff someone’s ass or lick them on the cheek I really don’t think it’s a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/64 "2009-11-15T06:58:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I asked **Martin Hyde** for a cite, and since you also seem to know what the proper protocol is, I’ll ask you too: do you have a cite that shows what proper protocol is for the President? I posted a cite upthread, which no one has yet contested, to the effect that it’s improper protocol in Japan to simultaneously shake hands while bowing. As for other protocols, I’m sure you were aware before you even asked that they vary from country to country and that determining what they are lies within the domain of the State Department and various functionaries who are supposedly knowledgeable in these areas already or who are supposed to research them beforehand, and that as I am not a member of the State Department, nor a functionary thereof, I would be hard pressed to provide cites for them all. But then again, you knew that already, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/65 "2009-11-15T07:03:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I posted a cite upthread, which no one has yet contested, to the effect that it’s improper protocol in Japan to simultaneously shake hands while bowing. Who fucking gives a rat’s ass, though? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/66 "2009-11-15T07:19:21Z")
OK, he bowed. Meh. But did he really have to bow so fucking low? The guy’s head is practically touching the ground. It gives the appearance of abasement rather than greeting. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/67 "2009-11-15T07:28:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I posted a cite upthread, which no one has yet contested, to the effect that it’s improper protocol in Japan to simultaneously shake hands while bowing. Actually, my cite contradicts yours. You are talking about that blog you linked to in post #21, right? That’s not a cite for protocol, that’s a blog. I’m looking for a real cite. I mean, the article I cited on bowing directly contradicts your blogger: > [@wiki article on bowing](#): > > When dealing with non-East Asians, many East Asians will shake hands. Since many non-East Asians are familiar with the custom of bowing, this often leads to a combined bow and handshake. Bows may be combined with handshakes or performed before or after shaking hands. [This book on business culture in Japan](http://books.google.com/books?id=6lJTqe_IwdsC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=japan+bow+handshake&source=bl&ots=l6ibHCoC9L&sig=elaxHTRZTnrXKvkcG3W0W84geak&hl=en&ei=8Kr_Suu9DYrRngfpq82XCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=japan%20bow%20handshake&f=false) says: > [@Japanese Business Culture and Practices: A Guide to Twenty-First Century Japanese Business](#): > > Many Japanese shake hands with westerners though they themselves do not like to do so. If a Japanese holds out his hand, then grasp it gently and share a quick handshake while making a small bow; no handshake should be hard and crushing since Japanese handshakes tend to be “limp fish” in character. So it seems that handshakes and bows are combined pretty commonly, especially when Japanese are dealing with Americans and Europeans, which is directly contradictory to what you said in post #21 (which you also said “I have no idea if this is correct or not”), thus it would seem that your information is incorrect. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > As for other protocols, I’m sure you were aware before you even asked that they vary from country to country and that determining what they are lies within the domain of the State Department and various functionaries who are supposedly knowledgeable in these areas already or who are supposed to research them beforehand, and that as I am not a member of the State Department, nor a functionary thereof, I would be hard pressed to provide cites for them all. > > But then again, you knew that already, didn’t you? I don’t really need a cite showing all possible situations the President might be in, just a cite showing that protocol is that he should never bow, or what the proper thing to do in the situation we are discussing should have been. But then, you knew that already, didn’t you? You’re just trying to evade the question, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/68 "2009-11-15T07:38:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I posted a cite upthread, which no one has yet contested, to the effect that it’s improper protocol in Japan to simultaneously shake hands while bowing. I used to live in Japan and I have never heard of such a rule. It seems a bit _strange_ to me to combine a low bow with a handshake, but it is not to my knowledge some horrible faux pas. I am not inclined to take your cite’s word for it, since it also claims that the current Emperor of Japan is considered a Shinto god. This is incorrect. The current emperor is not and never has been considered a god in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/69 "2009-11-15T07:42:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > As expected nothing aside from abject worship of Obama will receive anything but instant and universal condemnation from these boards. Obviously only “serious flaws” are worth mentioning in reference to a sitting President; I’m just glad the board populace observed this rule when George Bush was President. > > At least we can rest assured that all the criticisms of Obama are fueled by irrational right wing hatred, that way we can safely dismiss them. I’m just glad that the board populace also dismissed all criticisms of Bush as being fueled by irrational left wing hatred when he was President… > > Anyway, I will say that traditionally American political leaders don’t bow to foreign monarchs; period. From a perspective of protocol it is _absolutely not appropriate_. How important is protocol? It isn’t, really, but the thing is protocol is so firmly established that there’s a whole staff of people whose only job is to make sure U.S. leaders follow it. These aren’t a partisan staff and they transcend administrations, so it means for a President to _not_ be following protocol so repeatedly means said President has made the deliberate decision to not do so. Which is fine, but we should recognize that the _reason_ the President doesn’t (by protocol) bow to foreign monarchs is because the _one-sided_ bow is a sign of subservience. It’s something you did to someone of a higher class, and in prior eras pretty much all commoners would be expected to bow to any form of nobility, especially a monarch. Since we violently rejected monarchy it has never been protocol for an American leader to bow to a monarch. > > To complicate matters a little bit “bowing” is a traditional means of mutual greeting in Japan. Somewhat akin to a handshake here in America. However, traditionally you bow to one another, in this case the Emperor did _not_ bow because the Emperor as royalty is “above” the normal social niceties of Japanese society, and by tradition doesn’t bow to others. He _isn’t_ an equal and he _doesn’t_ bow. I’d have no problem with Obama bowing to the Japanese Prime Minister because as a matter of protocol the Prime Minister would also bow to Obama and thus it would be a greeting between equals. Shut up you knob nobody cares. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/70 "2009-11-15T07:45:42Z")
> [@SnowboarderBo](#): > > I don’t really need a cite showing all possible situations the President might be in, just a cite showing that protocol is that he should never bow, or what the proper thing to do in the situation we are discussing should have been. But then, you knew that already, didn’t you? You’re just trying to evade the question, aren’t you? No, what I’m trying to do is wrap up the threads I’m involved in so I can get to bed. I acknowledged that the cite I posted may be in error, and if it was and your cite is definitive (I don’t know that business protocol is the same as head-of-state protocol for that matter), then so be it. I don’t really care one way or the other. The main thing is that the president of the United States should not be bowing to other heads of state…or at least not as low as Obama has been doing. I don’t think anyone would be saying anything if Obama merely bent forward slightly, bringing his forehead down just a few inches as I’ve seen westerners do many times when addressing a Japanese. But the way he does it, it looks like he’s begging for alms or looking for a ring to kiss. And besides, as I said above, other types of non-presidential behavior on Obama’s part concern me more. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/71 "2009-11-15T07:59:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, what I’m trying to do is wrap up the threads I’m involved in so I can get to bed. I acknowledged that the cite I posted may be in error, and if it was and your cite is definitive (I don’t know that business protocol is the same as head-of-state protocol for that matter), then so be it. I don’t really care one way or the other. The main thing is that the president of the United States should not be bowing to other heads of state…or at least not as low as Obama has been doing. I don’t think anyone would be saying anything if Obama merely bent forward slightly, bringing his forehead down just a few inches as I’ve seen westerners do many times when addressing a Japanese. But the way he does it, it looks like he’s begging for alms or looking for a ring to kiss. > > And besides, as I said above, other types of non-presidential behavior on Obama’s part concern me more. Who gives a fuck? Seriously dude you’re unhinged and crazy if you actually care about this at all. Go back to listening to Glenn Beck. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/72 "2009-11-15T08:10:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, what I’m trying to do is wrap up the threads I’m involved in so I can get to bed. I acknowledged that the cite I posted may be in error, and if it was and your cite is definitive (I don’t know that business protocol is the same as head-of-state protocol for that matter), then so be it. I don’t really care one way or the other. If you don’t really care one way or the other, why did you try and make a point that what he did was wrong? Why did you try and make any point at all if you don’t care? > [@Starving Artist](#): > > The main thing is that the president of the United States should not be bowing to other heads of state…or at least not as low as Obama has been doing. I don’t think anyone would be saying anything if Obama merely bent forward slightly, bringing his forehead down just a few inches as I’ve seen westerners do many times when addressing a Japanese. But the way he does it, it looks like he’s begging for alms or looking for a ring to kiss. > > And besides, as I said above, other types of non-presidential behavior on Obama’s part concern me more. So now it’s okay to bow, just not a real deep bow? Is that your argument now? Where is this reference you have that describes what presidential behaviour is (or should be)? Still waiting for a cite that official protocol is that the US President should never bow. Have you got that cite yet? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/73 "2009-11-15T08:22:41Z")
> [@Michael Ellis](#): > > Who gives a fuck? Seriously dude you’re unhinged and crazy if you actually care about this at all. Go back to listening to Glenn Beck. _sigh_ I don’t listen to Glenn Beck. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh. I don’t watch or listen to Sean Hannity, and I don’t watch or listen to Bill O’Reilly. If you had said more I could undoubtedly show you were wrong about that too. Presidents have to negotiate with other countries and sometimes have to try to keep them from doing things adverse to our interests and/or to human rights in various other parts of the globe. A weak or naive president has a much harder time accomplishing either, as those of us who care about such things find blindingly obvious. And on preview: **Snowboarder Bo** , There’s no cite that says a married president shouldn’t get a blowjob from an intern in the Oval Office and yet I don’t think anyone of character would contend they should. There is no cite that a president shouldn’t call people racially offensive names, but I don’t think anyone of character would contend they should. There are all sorts of aspects of human behavior, as well as behavior by heads of state, that are known by all but don’t exist in written form. And there are others which exist in written form but are not available to laymen or those outside the particular governmental department. I’ll leave it to you to decide which is which, but as for me, I don’t honor disingenuous cite demands. You should know that by now. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/74 "2009-11-15T08:26:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And on preview: **Snowboarder Bo** , There’s no cite that says a married president shouldn’t get a blowjob from an intern in the Oval Office and yet I don’t think anyone of character would contend they should. There is no cite that a president shouldn’t call people racially offensive names, but I don’t think anyone of character would contend they should. There are all sorts of aspects of human behavior, as well as behavior by heads of state, that are known by all but don’t exist in written form. > > And there are others which exist in written form but are not available to laymen or those outside the particular governmental department. > > I’ll leave it to you to decide which is which, but as for me, I don’t honor disingenuous cite demands. You should know that by now. If there is official protocol for bowing or not bowing, which is the claim, that should be easy to verify. I cannot find any such when I search. You claimed to know this was against protocol. How do you know? My request isn’t disingenuous in the least, and it’s really shitty of you to try and say that it is. I’m looking for factual protocol, which you claimed existed, but I can’t find anywhere. Help me out and show it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/75 "2009-11-15T08:29:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _sigh_ > > I don’t listen to Glenn Beck. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh. I don’t watch or listen to Sean Hannity, and I don’t watch or listen to Bill O’Reilly. > > If you had said more I could undoubtedly show you were wrong about that too. > > Presidents have to negotiate with other countries and sometimes have to try to keep them from doing things adverse to our interests and/or to human rights in various other parts of the globe. A weak or naive president has a much harder time accomplishing either, as those of us who care about such things find blindingly obvious. I like how you’re assuming Obama is weak and naive because he apparently fucked up some sort of bowing protocol at a ceremonial meeting. Should he have gone in bare-chested and carrying a machete? Christ you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/76 "2009-11-15T08:51:02Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I like how you’re assuming Obama is weak and naive because he apparently fucked up some sort of bowing protocol at a ceremonial meeting. If it had been a singular occasion, it wouldn’t have meant much one way or the other. But in conjunction with his numerous other diplomatic faux pas, his waffling on Afghanistan, and his whinging about Limbaugh, Fox and “teabaggers,” he’s not exactly coming across as a very strong, decisive or well-informed chief executive. > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Should he have gone in bare-chested and carrying a machete? Christ you’re stupid. Well, let’s see: you jump to a completely erroneous conclusion as to my listening habits, and then you appear to castigate me for holding an outrageously ridiculous belief regarding what Obama should have done which you dreamed up yourself, and you call me stupid as a result. I’m sure you’ll understand if I don’t take your opinion of anyone’s intelligence too much to heart. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/77 "2009-11-15T08:58:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If it had been a singular occasion, it wouldn’t have meant much one way or the other. But in conjunction with his numerous other diplomatic faux pas, his waffling on Afghanistan, and his whinging about Limbaugh, Fox and “teabaggers,” he’s not exactly coming across as a very strong, decisive or well-informed chief executive. Dude, you can’t even show that _this_ was a diplomatic faux pas. What “numerous other” ones are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/78 "2009-11-15T09:15:10Z")
Evidently everybody at least stoops when giving Akihito some skin. [President Karzai of Afghanistan](http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/1806898.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939057D9939C83F106F7A628702F830BB8B01E70F2B3269972), [President Nguyen of Vietnam and his wife](http://www.life.com/image/78089514), [The Governor General of Canada](http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/royalwatch/features/article_1488128.php/In_Pictures_Japanese_Emperor_and_Empress_Visit_Canada?page=4), members of [one of the Canadian Olympic teams](http://www.ctvolympics.ca/mm/photo/vancouver/ctvo/01/27/65/12765_m15.jpg), and this EU official of some variety all did and the reason I chose these pics was I found them after 1 minute when I did a google image for Akihito greeted. Evidently [Mme. Chirac actually peed](http://www.life.com/image/52486321) while shaking his hand so I’m reasonably certain he’ll live through this. Of course there’s also a practical consideration: Obama is 6’1-6’2 and the Emperor is [is a tiny man](http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/royalwatch/features/article_1488128.php/In_Pictures_Japanese_Emperor_and_Empress_Visit_Canada?page=2), so a nod of the head is still going to make him a head taller. More likely is that Obama worships him as a divine descendant of the sun goddess and fears some kind of weird curse if he doesn’t, or he wanted to make Fox News shit a brick since he knows they’ll run with it and nobody else cares. (I’m almost positive he probably does or has done that from time to time.) ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/79 "2009-11-15T09:17:53Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > If it had been a singular occasion, it wouldn’t have meant much one way or the other. But in conjunction with his numerous other diplomatic faux pas, his waffling on Afghanistan, and his whinging about Limbaugh, Fox and “teabaggers,” he’s not exactly coming across as a very strong, decisive or well-informed chief executive. Well, he hasn’t declared any immoral and needless wars yet so he’s still ahead on points. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/80 "2009-11-15T09:23:18Z")
Isn’t it etiquette in some Asian cultures that your head is not supposed to be higher than the person you are presented to- especially if they are of high birth? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=5)