# Dear El Presidente Obama, a minor point of etiquette **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586 "2009-11-14T20:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/81 "2009-11-15T09:24:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If it had been a singular occasion, it wouldn’t have meant much one way or the other. But in conjunction with his numerous other diplomatic faux pas, his waffling on Afghanistan, and his whinging about Limbaugh, Fox and “teabaggers,” he’s not exactly coming across as a very strong, decisive or well-informed chief executive. Are you absolutely sure you’re not a right wing crazypants? Because you’ve got their idiotic talking points down exactly. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/82 "2009-11-15T10:23:51Z")
People bow while they’re shaking hands over in this part of the world all the time. Obama may have overdone the bow a bit but I don’t think anyone is going to think what he did was inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/83 "2009-11-15T10:33:23Z")
Except the Limbaugh-listening, Fox-watching teabaggers. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/84 "2009-11-15T10:39:37Z")
As a non-American I can’t help but feel that if “this country bows to no-one” is actually official policy then that is utterly fucked up, arrogant and, frankly, acting like a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/85 "2009-11-15T11:12:47Z")
Well, the teabagging American Right _are_ fucked up and arrogant. Nobody sane gives a shit about any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/86 "2009-11-15T11:35:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There’s no cite that says a married president shouldn’t get a blowjob from an intern in the Oval Office Once again, that’s the best the lunatic right can come up with: Obama is a bad president because Clinton got a blow job. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/87 "2009-11-15T11:40:11Z")
Damn, I should have gone to bed when I said I was 'cause then I wouldn’t be reading idiotic shit like this. I didn’t say Obama was a bad president because Clinton go a blowjob. I didn’t even say Obama is a bad president, even though I’m beginning to have my doubts. No, if you will recall I mentioned Clinton’s blowjob by way of illustrating that certain types of behavior are widely known to be wrong even if they aren’t written down on a State Dept. memo somewhere and applicable for use as a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/88 "2009-11-15T11:59:08Z")
You deliberately confused a culturally sensitive greeting with a blow job. The only possible explanation is that you are trying to tarnish Obama with Clinton’s blow job. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/89 "2009-11-15T12:04:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Damn, I should have gone to bed when I said I was 'cause then I wouldn’t be reading idiotic shit like this. Stop reading your own posts then, idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/90 "2009-11-15T12:08:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The only possible explanation is that you are trying to tarnish Obama with Clinton’s blow job. That must have been one hell of a splashback. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/91 "2009-11-15T12:21:07Z")
Obama bowed to a foreign leader? Shit, I guess that means we’re not a superpower anymore. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/92 "2009-11-15T13:32:46Z")
Maybe president B. Hussein O. should just stop holding himself back and DROP AND GOBBLE! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/93 "2009-11-15T14:26:42Z")
I was listening to talk radio the other day. I was surprised that prominent among the stock litany of complaints about Obama were examples of the President saying something along the lines of “America has made mistakes” or “America isn’t perfect.” I had not fully appreciated just how ridiculously, self-parody-level jingoistic the talk radio Right had become. Why is a level of humility on the world stage a bad thing? What is the mechanism of damage? To me, it seems that transforming America’s image from arrogant superpower to less-arrogant superpower willing to cooperate on international issues is quite a plus. Especially in a nation like Japan where one of the main bilateral issues is our troop presence in their country. At least the talk radio Right now acknowledges that how America is perceived internationally is important, having denied that international perception matters for eight long years. At least we can welcome them aboard on that front. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/94 "2009-11-15T14:50:26Z")
OP Customer Review : 0 stars out of 5 Reason provided : seller advertized mountain, but package only contained molehill built out of what appears to be human excrement. Will not purchase again. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/95 "2009-11-15T15:19:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Following protocol is important because, just like first impressions, it creates an image that can be hard to overcome. When Obama fails to follow proper protocol he creates an impression of himself as an amateur and a rube. The mistake you are making is that you think most of the world thinks as you do. To _you_ he comes across as a rube. To most of the world he comes across as the Great Conciliator. While this is only a matter of perception, that’s what protocol is all about, right? I guess what I mean is that to back up this whole thread, what you and the OP need is a cite that the average Japanese person (or average legislator?) sees this as weak or bumpkinish. Because when talking about protocol, that’s what matters, not what you or I think about the bowing. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/96 "2009-11-15T15:38:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why is a level of humility on the world stage a bad thing? What is the mechanism of damage? To me, it seems that transforming America’s image from arrogant superpower to less-arrogant superpower willing to cooperate on international issues is quite a plus. Especially in a nation like Japan where one of the main bilateral issues is our troop presence in their country. As near as I can tell, we must present an image of unchanging resolve and perpetual swagger so that we will be feared by our enemies. Like Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/97 "2009-11-15T15:45:31Z")
I don’t care that he bowed. I just hope to Og that the White House doesn’t try to deny it. Again. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/98 "2009-11-15T15:54:54Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Tihs has possibly not occured to you, or perhaps your protocol people are not doing their jobs. I dunno. I don’t care. Heck, maybe HIllary is just screwing with you. Whatever. > > You are the fucking President. You do not bow to Royalty. Ok, so I had misgivings about the whole Abdullah thing. Fine. It happened once, no biggie, it was embarassing but not fatal. Then MIchelle had that whole “touchy-feely with Queen Elizabeth” moment, but fine, she’s not you. > > But I expect you would have _learned_, dammit. > > [http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-japan.html](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-japan.html) > > Argh! > > And yes, I’m sure that Andrew Malcom is right (he’s the L.A. Times writer on this story), and a few of the older generation will appreciate it. It doesn’t matter. This is disrespectful to your _own country_, which does not bow before any foreign nation, just as you’re not supposed to fucking bow before their heads of state. I don’t care if Akihito does has the giant word Emperor before his goddamn nameplate on his desk, you’re the goddamn President of the United States: you are equal in international diplomacy, and even if you weren’t, you shouldn’t be bowing before a figurehead. > > Even if you somehow can’t grasp it, this is decidedly weak sauce and encourages a lot of other governments to pressure you in ways they wouldn’t otherwise dare. Politeness is one thing; snivelling is quite another. > > One GIANT :rolleyes: over this whole stupid public embarassment, even if msot people can’t grasp how obnoxious this behavior is. Fuck, you must have little to be at! ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/99 "2009-11-15T15:58:40Z")
How very badly must you need to be offended for a regular, time-practiced method of diplomatic greeting to preoccupy your time. It’s like there’s no time for rationale thought or debate, because you need to be in a constant state of fury when your team isn’t in office. It’s weird shit. I see the OP hasn’t been back since. He must be _really, really_ furious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/100 "2009-11-15T18:00:29Z")
By this gesture, Obama purchased a huge amount of good will amongst the Japanese people. Or, at the very least, avoided generating a lot of bad feeling. This comes at a time when the political winds in Japan have shifted in ways of great concern to American policy makers, especially as it relates to the continuing American military presence in Okinawa. Personally, I have mixed feelings about that, but I hired these people to conduct foreign policy on the presumption that they know what they’re about. The Emperor of Japan is not so much head of state as head of the people, it is an institution partly political, partly religious, and wholly unfathomable to the American mind. We don’t get it. They are at once coolly rational and pragmatic, and wildly emotional on certain topics. Obama’s gesture was aimed at the Japanese people, not the Japanese “state”. It is a gesture of friendship and amity, not a gesture of submission by a vassal, but a gesture of affectionate respect from an ally. I have no sources in Japan, no special expertise other than a fascination with their history, but I would be willing to bet that this gesture was warmly received amongst the everyday Japanese people. Who vote. Our dignity is not at risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=6)