# Dear El Presidente Obama, a minor point of etiquette **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586 "2009-11-14T20:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/101 "2009-11-15T18:13:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By this gesture, Obama purchased a huge amount of good will amongst the Japanese people. Or, at the very least, avoided generating a lot of bad feeling. This comes at a time when the political winds in Japan have shifted in ways of great concern to American policy makers, especially as it relates to the continuing American military presence in Okinawa. Personally, I have mixed feelings about that, but I hired these people to conduct foreign policy on the presumption that they know what they’re about. > > The Emperor of Japan is not so much head of state as head of the people, it is an institution partly political, partly religious, and wholly unfathomable to the American mind. We don’t get it. They are at once coolly rational and pragmatic, and wildly emotional on certain topics. > > Obama’s gesture was aimed at the Japanese people, not the Japanese “state”. It is a gesture of friendship and amity, not a gesture of submission by a vassal, but a gesture of affectionate respect from an ally. I have no sources in Japan, no special expertise other than a fascination with their history, but I would be willing to bet that this gesture was warmly received amongst the everyday Japanese people. Who vote. > > Our dignity is not at risk. You have posted five times in addition to the above post. Four of them were mostly worthless. Why did you just now post your most current thought as opposed to earlier in the thread? Why wait until now? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/102 "2009-11-15T18:20:28Z")
Bereft. Inconsolable. Sobbing into my banky… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/103 "2009-11-15T18:46:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t listen to Glenn Beck. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh. I don’t watch or listen to Sean Hannity, and I don’t watch or listen to Bill O’Reilly. You’re a shoo-in for the Randi prize, then, because your posts so closely resemble the ordure they ooze that you’re clearly possessed of clairvoyance, if not automatic writing. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/104 "2009-11-15T18:52:07Z")
Conservatives are just mad that he doesn’t bow to Rush Limbaugh. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/105 "2009-11-15T19:08:19Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You’re a shoo-in for the Randi prize, then, because your posts so closely resemble the ordure they ooze that you’re clearly possessed of clairvoyance, if not automatic writing. It might interest you to know that my political beliefs, mindset and disdain for liberalism far preceed the rise even of Limbaugh, much less relative late-comers like Beck, Hannity and O’Reilly. Those guys are getting rich not because they’re telling conservatives what to think, but because they’re plugged in to much of what liberal politicians and agitators are up to and they’re good at getting people inflamed about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/106 "2009-11-15T19:11:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Those guys are getting rich not because they’re telling conservatives what to think, but because they’re plugged in to much of what liberal politicians and agitators are up to and they’re good at getting people inflamed about it. Option three: They’re plugged in to _what you want to hear_ and feed it to you without regard for truth or ethics. You (or those similar to you) eat it up like candy and make them rich. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/107 "2009-11-15T19:18:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It might interest you to know that my political beliefs, mindset and disdain for liberalism far preceed the rise even of Limbaugh, much less relative late-comers like Beck, Hannity and O’Reilly. Ah, the urber-nut. That explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/108 "2009-11-15T19:35:42Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Option three: They’re plugged in to _what you want to hear_ and feed it to you without regard for truth or ethics. There is much truth to this, I’m afraid. It’s one of the reasons I don’t listen to those guys. This wasn’t always so. I listened to Limbaugh on and off for a couple of years in the early nineties and he was much less the demagogue that he seems to be now. Still, even now there seems to be enough factual information mixed in with the demagogery to be informative to people who know how to separate the wheat from the chaff. (I know this from a couple of cursory looks at his website in response to things said about him around here.) But I don’t need what those guys are selling and so I don’t listen to them. Having said that, I don’t even like Hannity or O’Reilly, and Beck is an outright embarrassment. How in the hell he ever climbed up out of obscurity is anyone’s guess. But like I’ve said here before, the very reason they exist is because of decades of liberal dominance of the news and entertainment businesses, and the only reason they continue to exist is because of the continued liberal dominance of the news and entertainment business. If conservatism had had an equal voice on the public stage there would have been no need for conservative commentators. To me this is one of the reasons that liberal talk radio fails: there’s no need for it because the liberal point of view is in wide enough distribution as it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/109 "2009-11-15T19:49:25Z")
Can’t see much substance here, but I wonder why he did it? Maybe just a slip, but he’s supposed to have really smart people telling him what to do in these types of circumstances. I saw the video clip and, interestingly enough, he bowed to the emperor’s wife, too. Only he bowed a lot more to the emperor. For those not familiar with Japanese customs, the deeper the bow, the more deference you pay (not surprisingly). It’s definitely an art in Japan to gauge the depth of your bow, and I wouldn’t recommend a \*gaijin \*to take an amateur’s swipe at it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/110 "2009-11-15T20:36:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If conservatism had had an equal voice on the public stage there would have been no need for conservative commentators. Do you even read what you write? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/111 "2009-11-15T20:42:29Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Do you even read what you write? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/112 "2009-11-15T20:54:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …the deeper the bow, the more deference you pay (not surprisingly)… Perhaps just an accident of wording, but you may be confusing “deference” with “honor”. In a situation where there simply is no question of subservience (such as this), then what may appear to be deference is best regarded as honor, or, if you insist, flattery. To take an entirely unrelated example, it is not uncommon for enemies in war to offer a salute to one’s adversary for an especially gallant action or gesture, a “for instance” being the military honors afforded to Baron von Richtofen by Allied forces in WWI. By no stretch of the imagination could such a gesture be interpreted as subservience. The precise Japanese phrase eludes, but the verb form is to “_butteru_ up” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/113 "2009-11-15T21:14:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Perhaps just an accident of wording, but you may be confusing “deference” with “honor”. In a situation where there simply is no question of subservience (such as this), then what may appear to be deference is best regarded as honor, or, if you insist, flattery. Respect would have been a better term. I was speaking of the custom as practiced by the Japanese. There is no sense of subservience if you both bow the same amount. Otherwise, there is. I’m sure Obama didn’t mean to convey that, but that is what the gesture means in a Japanese cultural context. Hence, not advisable for a \*gaijin \*to attempt, since you’re almost certain to screw it up. He probably just thought he was being polite, but who knows? The Japanese are used to this sort of thing-- bumbling \*gaijin \*not knowing the proper way to act. I made many a faux pas in my various trips to Japan. Bowing incorrectly would have been one of the least of the transgressions. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/114 "2009-11-15T21:25:41Z")
Yeah, and like I learned the hard way: the presence of a chick in a schoolgirl uniform does not necessarily mean it’s a bukkake party. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/115 "2009-11-15T21:30:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yeah, and like I learned the hard way: the presence of a chick in a schoolgirl uniform does not necessarily mean it’s a bukkake party. As long as you learned it. Does the ankle bracelet you received as a souvenir chafe? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/116 "2009-11-15T21:31:35Z")
Just so. In America, an “honorable discharge” has only a specific, military meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/117 "2009-11-15T22:28:49Z")
I used to have a Seaman’s Certificate of Continuous Discharge. It’s title made me think of the clap. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/118 "2009-11-16T00:46:57Z")
Apparently Nixon bowed to the previous Emperor. You know, the one who started WWII. That was before blogs, so it was OK. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/119 "2009-11-16T00:50:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I have no idea if this is correct or not, but if so I can’t believe that after giving U.K.'s brown a gift of CDs, You meant DVDs, and you probably said CDs on purpose because saying DVDs would be a reminder that the gift was in fact a gift of _ **American culture** _, good movies made in America, specifically and specially chosen and packaged by the American Film Institute, rather than a bunch of cheapo C-list movies picked up by an intern at a Blockbuster used DVD sale, the way the right-wing (and other) idiots would make it out to be. Here’s a list of the films given: > [@](#): > > Citizen Kane > The Godfather > Casablanca > Raging Bull > Singin’ in the Rain > Gone with the Wind > Lawrence of Arabia > Schindler’s List > Vertigo > The Wizard of Oz > City Lights > The Searchers > Star Wars: Episode IV > Psycho > 2001: A Space Odyssey > Sunset Boulevard > The Graduate > The General > On the Waterfront > It’s a Wonderful Life > Chinatown > Some Like It Hot > The Grapes of Wrath > ET: The Extra-Terrestrial > To Kill a Mockingbird You got the other ones wrong too, but I felt the need to specifically address this one. I understand though. Clinton got a blow job, so that excuses your lies and distortions. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586/120 "2009-11-16T06:25:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As long as you learned it. Does the ankle bracelet you received as a souvenir chafe? No, but the plaid jumper sure did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-el-presidente-obama-a-minor-point-of-etiquette/517586.md?page=7)