# Dear graduate student teaching assistants who strike: stop fucking lying about how much you're paid! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607 "2009-11-15T00:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/41 "2009-11-16T16:20:39Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I believe just after we left, they changed the rules that the tuition had to be declared as income. If that is the case, then it sure seems disingenuous not to include it as your income. FWIW I don’t pay income tax on my PhD school tuition, just on my stipend. From [IRS](http://www.irs.gov/individuals/students/article/0,,id=96674,00.html): > [@](#): > > If you are a candidate for a degree, you generally can exclude from income that part of the grant used for: > > Tuition and fees required for enrollment or attendance, or > Fees, books, supplies, and equipment required for your courses. > You cannot exclude from income any part of the grant used for other purposes, such as room and board. IANAA. Anyhow, I generally don’t support grad student unions but I still think this thread is all kinds of stupid. There are many reasonable pit threads you can write about grad students who strike, I’m amused that OP skipped over them and wrote this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/42 "2009-11-16T16:23:48Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > college football coaches who are paid 3-4 million dollars a year “only make” something around 1m of that in “salary” - the rest is incentives, guaranteed retirement pensions, side deals, etc. > > corporate CEOs are only “paid” 800k a year for their services - but they also collect stock options worth tens of millions of dollars. no one says that CEOs make/are paid only 800k. But those amounts are actual income that those people get. The stock options, etc. re all convertible to cold, hard cash of the same value as their nominal value. If i give you $100K in shares in a company, you can turn around and sell those shares for pretty much $100K, (possibly minus a brokerage fee). The value they are assigned when given is essentially the same as their actual market value. This is not the case with a tuition waiver. You can say all you want that X is worth $30,000, but if you can’t get anyone to pay $30,000 for X in the marketplace, then it’s actually not worth $30,000, no matter what number you put on a piece of paper. If i have something you want, but you’re only wiling to pay $50 for it, does my claim that it’s worth $200 actually _make_ that object worth $200? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/43 "2009-11-16T16:33:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But those amounts are actual income that those people get. The stock options, etc. re all convertible to cold, hard cash of the same value as their nominal value. > > If i have something you want, but you’re only wiling to pay $50 for it, does my claim that it’s worth $200 actually _make_ that object worth $200? typically employee stock options are not exercisable for a certain amount of time. but thanks for missing the point. > [@](#): > > If i have something you want, but you’re only wiling to pay $50 for it, does my claim that it’s worth $200 actually _make_ that object worth $200? no (edit: not necessarily), but neither does your willingness to only pay $50 dollars for it make it worth $50. now I have a question: are there ever any examples of a job requiring a PhD paying less than a job in a similar field that only requires a B.A.? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/44 "2009-11-16T16:56:07Z")
Because I’m totally procrastinating, I’ve come up with one close-to example for you, for which I could actually find the data: engineers. From [here](http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm): “In the Federal Government, mean annual salaries for engineers ranged from $75,144 in agricultural engineering to $107,546 in ceramic engineering in 2007.” Average starting salaries with a Bachelor’s only go from 47,960-60,718. (Note the petroleum engineers column: average starting with a Bachelor’s is 60,718, with a Master’s is 57,000) Now,[here](http://www.cupahr.org/surveys/NFSS0607_salary.asp) is some average salary information for unversity faculty: For an Assistant Professor in Engineering (so, not even starting salary, but all of them), for which one needs a PhD: Assistant Professor, $69,896. Ugh. I looked through the rest of those faculty tables. Now I’ve gone and depressed myself. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/45 "2009-11-16T17:00:56Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Ugh. I looked through the rest of those faculty tables. Now I’ve gone and depressed myself. cheer up. and thanks for the research. i forgot to add the exclusion of engineers 😉 (and my forgetfullnes is bona fide - in my threads i have been consistent in excluding engineer PhD’s from my “rant” (which I admit maybe should’ve been originally posted in MPSIMS) because the economies of their graduate programs are very different to liberal arts stuff) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/46 "2009-11-16T17:03:28Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > cheer up. and thanks for the research. i forgot to add the exclusion of engineers 😉 > > (and my forgetfullnes is bona fide - in my threads i have been consistent in excluding engineer PhD’s from my “rant” (which I admit maybe should’ve been originally posted in MPSIMS) because the economies of their graduate programs are very different to liberal arts stuff) That’s absolutely true, but then you can’t actually give an answer - what is a ‘similar field’ to researching Englisth literature or Roman history that **doesn’t** require a PhD? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/47 "2009-11-16T17:13:44Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > That’s absolutely true, but then you can’t actually give an answer - what is a ‘similar field’ to researching Englisth literature or Roman history that **doesn’t** require a PhD? well i would guess that most natural science and social science liberal arts grads have similar types jobs in the private sector whether they hold a BA or a PhD ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/48 "2009-11-16T17:31:50Z")
My tuition waiver was not part of my job as a TA, that was completely separate. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/49 "2009-11-16T18:08:52Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > well i would guess that most natural science and social science liberal arts grads have similar types jobs in the private sector whether they hold a BA or a PhD Yes, I think you’re missing the point. I have a Ph.D. in Folklore. I have a B.A. from U.C. Berkeley. Right now I am a lecturer in the CSU system, a job my B.A. alone would not allow me to have. However, my best friend from college only has a B.A. (same major) and is earning about $10K / year more than I am, with less student loan debt. She is not qualified for my job, but since we have the same education up to the B.A. I would obviously qualify for hers (had I spent the intervening 15 years working in industry rather than academia). So while there is no direct equivalent to a private-sector version of my job, it is absolutely less remunerative. Had I landed a tenure-track job, the numbers would change, but an ever-smaller percentage of Ph.D. holders end up with those jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/50 "2009-11-16T18:24:23Z")
> [@sugar\_and\_spice](#): > > FWIW I don’t pay income tax on my PhD school tuition, just on my stipend. From [IRS](http://www.irs.gov/individuals/students/article/0,,id=96674,00.html): Thanks - that makes it an even better gig than I thought. Maybe state tax tho? Just got a call from one of my kids that they went on strike today. Fuck them. And this from a pretty pro-labor guy. Told my kid to view it as another learning experience. Probably more real to her than whenever her grade and high school teachers discussed striking. Suggested that she try to learn at least enough about the issues in order to form an intelligent opinion of where her sympathies lie in this particular dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/51 "2009-11-16T18:37:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But those amounts are actual income that those people get. The stock options, etc. re all convertible to cold, hard cash of the same value as their nominal value. If i give you $100K in shares in a company, you can turn around and sell those shares for pretty much $100K, (possibly minus a brokerage fee). The value they are assigned when given is essentially the same as their actual market value. Those are stock grants, not options. Stock options give you the right to buy stock at a given price at some future date. If the stock has gone up, you can buy the stock at the lower price and sell at the higher price. If it goes down, the options aren’t worth the electrons they’re written on. If what you said were true, I’d be retired on a tropical island about now. \ ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/52 "2009-11-16T19:31:44Z")
I did not get a tuition waiver in graduate school, and worked full-time to afford the tuition (went to school part-time, and TA’d part-time), just to provide another data point that not all graduate students receive tuition waivers. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/53 "2009-11-16T19:46:49Z")
We’re in the Pit, right? So why hasn’t this clod of an OP been eviscerated for writing without capitalization? It’s not clear from the OP, but I gather that he or she is in college. I didn’t go to college, but I damn sure learned how to use a motherfucking _shift key_ before I got out of High School! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/54 "2009-11-16T19:52:49Z")
TAs and RAs can’t just take the tuition waiver and apply it to whatever school the wish, or trade it for food, shelter, clothing and transportation. It’s a bit like miners being forced to shop at the company store and live in the company homes, all at the company prices. The bottom line is whether or not the teachers receive a living wage while they are working their way through school by teaching there. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/55 "2009-11-16T20:15:38Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > TAs and RAs can’t just take the tuition waiver and apply it to whatever school the wish, or trade it for food, shelter, clothing and transportation. It’s a bit like miners being forced to shop at the company store and live in the company homes, all at the company prices. The bottom line is whether or not the teachers receive a living wage while they are working their way through school by teaching there. and people that work at walmart can’t apply their employee discount at k-mart. and people that are given a company car can’t take it with them when they switch jobs. transmutability of an item isn’t the test for “is this part of my compensation package”. and, again, i don’t take issue with your pay gripe. i take issue with your pay gripe when you claim “i do the work of a professor and i only get paid 15k a year for it!”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/56 "2009-11-16T20:17:35Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > TAs and RAs can’t just take the tuition waiver and apply it to whatever school the wish, or trade it for food, shelter, clothing and transportation. It’s a bit like miners being forced to shop at the company store and live in the company homes, all at the company prices. The bottom line is whether or not the teachers receive a living wage while they are working their way through school by teaching there. God, what bullshit! Equating college TAs with coal miners! Sounds like someone really needs to go out and find what it is like to work for a living. You don’t want the deal, go find another job. For my wife and me - and every other TA/RA I have ever spoken with - the tuition waiver is KEY. The stipend is basically a bonus. In many cases, the individuals CHOOSE their school based on which ones afford them tuition waivers. And yeah - tho it might suck, you can always go out and get another job in addition to your TA gig - as I did. Working in the mines indeed! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/57 "2009-11-16T20:41:49Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Thanks - that makes it an even better gig than I thought. Maybe state tax tho? Well I don’t pay state tax on it, I’m pretty confident no one else here does either. The state tax on our tuition would be about $1K per year per student, if we’re all doing our taxes wrong then I’m sure someone in Springfield would have figured it out by now. And again, this is for doctoral students, I wouldn’t be surprised if beans are counted differently for a professional degree. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/58 "2009-11-16T20:47:12Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > God, what bullshit! Equating college TAs with coal miners! Sounds like someone really needs to go out and find what it is like to work for a living. Actually, I have worked in a mine/mill, in which the mine gave a discount on the camp’s room and board fees. Have you worked in a mine or a mine-mill? And I worked on a freighter that obviously covered room and board when on-board. Have you worked on a freighter? And I worked as a TA when tuition was not discounted. The TA job was the one that did not pay a living wage. That’s really what it comes down to – not a total compensation package with made-up tuition numbers that bear no relationship to the resources used by the TA, but rather how much money is in the TA’s pocket to live on. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/59 "2009-11-16T21:02:11Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s really what it comes down to – not a total compensation package with made-up tuition numbers that bear no relationship to the resources used by the TA, but rather how much money is in the TA’s pocket to live on. Well, we disagree on this. Why are you working as a TA? To make your living? Or to defray the costs as you pursue some other goal? At my kids’ schools, residential tuition is $11k - non-res $22k. That’s 11-22k the TA is not having to spend to go to school. You really are warping reality to not consider that valuable compensation. Maybe the school ought to pay them $5k more, and take away their tuition waiver. Would that make them happy? And you worked 40 hours a week as a TA? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607/60 "2009-11-16T21:29:59Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > And yeah - tho it might suck, you can always go out and get another job in addition to your TA gig - as I did. This is not correct. Many doctoral students are expressly forbidden from holding another job while enrolled in their program. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-graduate-student-teaching-assistants-who-strike-stop-fucking-lying-about-how-much-youre-paid/517607.md?page=4)