# Dear Mississippi Tea Party: Are You Sure Inciting Treason Isn't A Crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885 "2012-07-01T10:35:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/161 "2012-07-10T01:53:17Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > From context I guessed what an ABC store was, but I had to look it up to be sure. > [http://www.dor.ms.gov/abc/main.html](http://www.dor.ms.gov/abc/main.html) > I’ve lived in drinking states (Wisconsin and NY) all my life. Hard to imagine a state needing a wet/dry map. I guess it’s easier to buy an automatic weapon there than a Guinness. Dry counties are probably _because_ of the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/162 "2012-07-10T03:04:44Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Dry counties are probably _because_ of the guns. I’d think it’d be the other way around… You can pry my bottle from my cold, dead hand. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/163 "2012-07-10T03:15:25Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I’d think it’d be the other way around… > > You can pry my bottle from my cold, dead hand. BANG! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/164 "2012-07-10T03:27:40Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Either way, it’s silly and doesn’t make much sense. Imagine if the same were true for public or private education. Or, all roads are toll, unless you have employee benefits. Is “you can’t drive on these roads unless you have insurance” any better, really? That’s the case in my state and is pretty normal, I believe. We are unwilling to deny healthcare, so we have to make people pay for it instead. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/165 "2012-07-10T03:30:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I do. Because I don’t agree that Christian principles should form the basis of secular policy. Do you think they should? On the other hand, I do. Doesn’t mean you have to be Christian. But the reason I’m a Christian is that I believe those principles are right, so why wouldn’t I want them in the government? Why would I want wrong ones in the government? In fact, it leads me to ask why you became a Christian if not because you think the general ethos is correct? Note: I’m all for removing anything that contradicts the concept of the government being secular, but that’s far less than removing all the principles. They all work on their own, with or without a God. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/166 "2012-07-10T03:58:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Is “you can’t drive on these roads unless you have insurance” any better, really? That’s the case in my state and is pretty normal, I believe. We are unwilling to deny healthcare, so we have to make people pay for it instead. Yes, yes it is better, and it’s super cheap, comparatively. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/167 "2012-07-10T05:09:14Z")
A God that needs to enforce his will by the threat of eternal damnation is not a being to be worshiped, but defied, and, if possible, overthrown. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/168 "2012-07-10T13:26:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A God that needs to enforce his will by the threat of eternal damnation is not a being to be worshiped, but defied, and, if possible, overthrown. I’d amend it like this: A religious authority who needs to enforce his will by the threat of eternal damnation by God is not an authority to be followed, but defied and overthrown. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/169 "2012-07-10T13:31:10Z")
“I believe a man, should be beholding to his neighbour, without the reward of heaven or fear of eternal hellfire.” - (some old song) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/170 "2012-07-10T14:33:09Z")
I like the car driving analogy. As far as I’m aware, insurance is only needed for cars in operation. So health insurance should only be required for people using public roads or footpaths too. If they never leave their house, no problem. No coverage, no cost. > [@cmyk](#): > > I won’t pay taxes for assholes. Eventually you’ll get shit on. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Government-run UHC would still work like insurance. Bullshit. There’s no profit motivator and no top level management compensation. Compare operating and administrative costs for charities like Movember and government agencies like Social Security: the latter ones are minimal. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > But we need insurance because our care is more expensive, and its more expensive, in part, because it’s alot better. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > You’d pay thousands… Bullshit. In the UK, taking into account per capita taxation costs and the highest rate of insurance (no copay), one still pays less than the per capita costs in the US. You’d need to demonstrate that insured individuals live longer in the US than insured individuals in the UK in order for this statement to hold true. As it happens, despite your frequent protestations of being a “liberal anti-corporate democrat” I think you’re a corporate troll of some sort. Perhaps blighting us from Business Insider or Forbes or something. You’ve spent far too long engaging in apologetics or “just asking questions” for talking point Republican positions to be taken seriously. Also, [this](http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/171 "2012-07-10T14:39:18Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Bullshit. There’s no profit motivator and no top level management compensation. Profit and compensation are not what makes insurance insurance. You pay a premium, and you get benefits. That’s insurance. Government-run insurance is still insurance. It may be better than private insurance, but it’s still insurance. > [@](#): > > Compare operating and administrative costs for charities like Movember and government agencies like Social Security: the latter ones are minimal. Fine. But it’s still insurance. > [@](#): > > Bullshit. In the UK, taking into account per capita taxation costs and the highest rate of insurance (no copay), one still pays less than the per capita costs in the US. You’d need to demonstrate that insured individuals live longer in the US than insured individuals in the UK in order for this statement to hold true. Lifespan is a relatively poor measure of health care quality. Too many other variables. And health is about more than just surviving as long as possible. > [@](#): > > As it happens, despite your frequent protestations of being a “liberal anti-corporate democrat” I think you’re a corporate troll of some sort. Perhaps blighting us from Business Insider or Forbes or something. You’ve spent far too long engaging in apologetics or “just asking questions” for talking point Republican positions to be taken seriously. I don’t give a flying fuck what you think I am. Nor should anyone. It’s not relevant to whether my views are correct or not. I am not here to impress you or prove that I’m sufficiently liberal for you. I’m quite confident in that without proving it to you. Nor does it matter. If I’m not a liberal, so be it. That said, I find just spewing the same old crap to be boring. I challenge right wingers when there’s something interesting to talk about, but I find it much more interesting to challenge my fellow liberals. I think it’s useful too because it will strengthen their arguments in the real world and stop them from wasting their time and energy on pointless bullshit they can’t, and shouldn’t, win. For instance, Citizens United. If you don’t like it, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/172 "2012-07-12T19:30:03Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > Government-run insurance is still insurance. I’m not sure whether you’re being obtuse or just ignorant, but the only other industrialised country (that I know of) to run a healthcare version similar to the [individual mandate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_mandate) for the majority of citizens is [Andorra](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Healthcare). Singapore uses a mixed system where [31% of costs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore#Health) are paid by the government. Extrapolating that all healthcare is a form of insurance (when there is no monetary profit motivator) is to debase the term beyond conveying any useful information. At the moment, we can distinguish between [government run healthcare insurance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_option), government mandated healthcare insurance and [public healthcare paid for from taxation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_healthcare). We may as well define the fire department as a subsidiary of the public contents insurance group. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Lifespan is a relatively poor measure of health care quality. Too many other variables. And health is about more than just surviving as long as possible. Provide a metric other than lifespan or infant mortality then. Most analyses I’ve seen have concluded that US healthcare is the best in the world if we ignore the pesky poor or black “citizens” (they’re hardly [Real Americans](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=327xneOFo20)™, anyway). Anyway, I address some concerns about confounds [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15230298&postcount=63). California has a murder rate of 4.9, [slightly higher than the national average](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state). Its [obesity rate](http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=6&ind=89)is slightly lower than the national average (higher than the UK, though, for instance). Their population is pretty [heterozygous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Racial_and_ancestral_makeup). They’re pretty much middle of the road when it comes to [road fatalities](http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/nrd-30/ncsa/STSI/6_CA/2010/6_CA_2010.htm). Yet they’re the third highest state in terms of life expectancy? Which factor is behind that? I’d put money on the rate of insured Californians, which is significantly higher than Texas. We’re back to “there, it’s the best healthcare money can buy”, which misses the point that the average US person pays more than Japan for significantly worse outcomes and even the healthiest states (I hear the Seventh Day Adventists in California may skew the results) pay more than Japan for worse outcomes. Will extending coverage somehow diminish the healthcare for the rest of the people with outcomes higher than some of the public healthcare states? > [@lance strongarm](#): > > I don’t give a flying fuck what you think I am. Ignoring the grave threat of repeating myself, but… bullshit. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [Speaking as a moderate liberal, I have very strong feelings about that case and was happy to see it decided that way. It affected me.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15187179&postcount=85) > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [But that’s a circular argument, because not all issues are “left-wing” vs. “right-wing”. I am a liberal who strongly supports the Citizens United decision, for instance, on free speech grounds, as did the “liberal” ACLU.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15187189&postcount=86) > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [I’m a lifelong Dem, but I have to say that hardcore liberals like you have turned into bizarre corporation-hating machines. You seem to see everything in terms of corporations vs. everyone else.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15187196&postcount=88) > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [And I am an Obama supporter, so nobody can accuse me of being political in my opinion about this.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15191139&postcount=126) > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [I’m a liberal/moderate Democrat, as well as a strong supporter of the Citizens United decision, especially Scalia’s excellent concurring opinion.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188137&postcount=107) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/173 "2012-07-12T20:04:58Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I’m not sure whether you’re being obtuse or just ignorant, but the only other industrialised country (that I know of) to run a healthcare version similar to the [individual mandate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_mandate) for the majority of citizens is [Andorra](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Healthcare). Singapore uses a mixed system where [31% of costs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore#Health) are paid by the government. > > Extrapolating that all healthcare is a form of insurance (when there is no monetary profit motivator) is to debase the term beyond conveying any useful information. At the moment, we can distinguish between [government run healthcare insurance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_option), government mandated healthcare insurance and [public healthcare paid for from taxation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_healthcare). We may as well define the fire department as a subsidiary of the public contents insurance group. All I said was that government-run insurance is still insurance. Are you talking about government-run health care, like the National Health? Or just a single-payer system with private providers paid by the government, like Medicare? > [@](#): > > Provide a metric other than lifespan or infant mortality then. You should probably do that. > [@](#): > > Ignoring the grave threat of repeating myself, but… bullshit. You can’t read my mind, son. Those statements were simply made to disprove various bullshit claims that only a conservative could support Citizens United. Don’t flatter yourself by thinking that they have anything to do with you or what you think of me. Can we get back on topic now? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/174 "2012-07-12T21:53:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not a corporation necessarily, but an employer. Yes, that’s true for most Americans. And it shouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/175 "2012-07-13T13:01:52Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > All I said was that government-run insurance is still insurance. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > [Government-run UHC would still work like insurance.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEN_o3xYfEE) > [@lance strongarm](#): > > You should probably do that. The hell? It’s your contention, support it. I’ll determine whether it’s warranted or not, just as I did in the other thread with Rand Rover. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/176 "2012-07-13T19:33:50Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The hell? It’s your contention, support it. If you’re talking about a government-run medical system - the doctors all work for the government - that’s different. If you are talking about a single-payer system where the doctors are not employed by the government, but get paid by a government system like Medicare, then that’s akin to government-run insurance. The latter would function alot like private insurance. Not the same, but similar. There would be limits on what is covered. The amount you pay in premiums/taxes might vary according to your risk or age. You might be responsible for part of the payment due to copays and deductibles. That’s all I’m saying. And it’s not controversial. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/177 "2012-07-14T11:59:09Z")
Ok, sorry, it was a confusion in terms. There are tax only systems of funding [universal healthcare](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_healthcare). I was aware of insurance based alternatives, but claiming “government run UHC would still work like insurance” is false. I’m more interested in seeing factors on quality of life outcomes other than access to health services. I thought of another, [patient doctor](http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/185-the-patients-per-doctor-map-of-the-world) ratio, but like all others variables I’ve looked at (homogeneity of population, obesity, murder rate, automotive accident rate, cigarette and alcohol consumption), it doesn’t provide an adequate explanation for health outcome disparities. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/178 "2012-07-14T12:36:08Z")
New Hampshire has an obesity rate of 25.6%, with an overweight rate of 37.4%. slightly lower rates than [New Zealand](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10752121). Its murder rate was [slightly lower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate) too. Yet [lifespan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_life_expectancy) in New Zealand is [higher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885/179 "2012-07-16T13:45:16Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Ok, sorry, it was a confusion in terms. There are tax only systems of funding [universal healthcare](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_healthcare). I was aware of insurance based alternatives, but claiming “government run UHC would still work like insurance” is false. Which is why I didn’t say that. I said “government-run health insurance would still work like insurance.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-mississippi-tea-party-are-you-sure-inciting-treason-isnt-a-crime/626885.md?page=8)