# Dear NFL: You are making it hard to be a fan
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 6, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199 "2013-11-06T00:30:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Cognoscant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cognoscant)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/21 "2013-11-06T16:17:37Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#):
>
> I’ve watched enough football at all levels, and still do, that I can be fairly accused of hypocricy, but I’ve long thought that the sport is a net loss for our culture, given its penchant (as it seems to) for celebrating oafishness. Given that, I guess the only thing that surprises me about the Martin-Incognito deal is that the Dolphins actually did something about it.
Yesterday I was talking to another co-worker about the Incognito incident. She mentioned to me that she had been a parent at a school where a similar scandal hit their high school football team (a scandal which included, among other things, a player being raped by another player). Some of the instigators got suspended and the rapist did get criminal charges, but not a single coach or administrator was punished for the incident. As the co-worker said, “that’s just how things happen around here.” So, I suppose this is progress–even if you have to wonder whether Incognito’s history of on-field problems made it an easier decision for the Dolphins.
---
### Author:  [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/22 "2013-11-06T16:35:39Z")
I noticed most of the quotes quoted by the OP were given on the condition of anonymity, where is the ‘manliness’ in that? Sounds rather cowardly to me. Man up and own your words, ya pussy!
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/23 "2013-11-06T17:44:21Z")
The whole story is sickening, but what really pisses me off is the stream of media reports that state that many former players, or current non-Miami players, see Martin as a snitch; that he handled things wrong; that he should have beat up Incognito; etc.
I love NFL football because I think it takes a lot to play a sport at that level, including smarts and good judgment.
I have been proven totally wrong.
Between this and the New Orleans bounty scandal, the NFL and everyone from players to coaches to executives can go fuck themselves with a rusty razor. You collectively sicken me.
---
### Author:  [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/24 "2013-11-06T18:04:08Z")
It would appear we’ve come some distance and of questionable direction from the days when NFL rookie hazing and player antics were fairly honestly presented to curious audiences and met with overall approval; [Paper Lion](https://www.google.com/search?q=paper+lion&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tIN6Ur-yGdDpqAHijIHgDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1050&bih=393#q=paper+lion+movie&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=7IUTu7Ft0M2fnM%3A%3BXvluT-ElTvSeZM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.movieposter.com%252Fposters%252Farchive%252Fmain%252F12%252FMPW-6282%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.movieposter.com%252Fposter%252FMPW-6282%252FPaper_Lion.html%3B450%3B758).
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/25 "2013-11-06T18:06:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> “At this level, you’re a man. You’re not a little boy. You’re not a freshman in college. You’re a man.”
The interesting thing about all of this ( to me ) is that if he really did a _manly_ thing like saying, “yeah, I’m not paying for shit - no fines, no meals no nothing”, he’d get attacked by those same people for bucking the system. Even if you were okay with more standard hazing like acting like a gopher ( and to be clear, I’m not - I think 90% of the standard “it builds esprit de corps” argument for hazing is bullshit ), paying out large sums of money is just ridiculous. I’d like to think I’d flat out refuse. But obviously that is part of a universal culture and you would be inviting harassment in that case for standing up for yourself.
So when idiots are criticizing Martin for not being _manly_ enough, they are spouting bullshit. Because anyone who truly stood up for themselves and said “I don’t tolerate hazing” would be just as ostracized for not being a team player.
---
### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/26 "2013-11-06T18:17:26Z")
I am a man. A large man with some muscles. My knuckles have had some scrapes on them.
Does this mean I have to physically confront a bullying co-worker, lest I be labled soft? Do they not realize that physical confrontaions often spiral out of control? That people are often injured and yes, sometimes _killed_\* in fights???
- [sub]I personally know 2 indivuals who are doing long prison sentences for deaths resulting from what started as just a bar fight. [/sub]
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### Author:  [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/27 "2013-11-06T18:24:52Z")
> [@lieu](#):
>
> It would appear we’ve come some distance and of questionable direction from the days when NFL rookie hazing and player antics were fairly honestly presented to curious audiences and met with overall approval; [Paper Lion](https://www.google.com/search?q=paper+lion&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tIN6Ur-yGdDpqAHijIHgDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1050&bih=393#q=paper+lion+movie&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=7IUTu7Ft0M2fnM%3A%3BXvluT-ElTvSeZM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.movieposter.com%252Fposters%252Farchive%252Fmain%252F12%252FMPW-6282%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.movieposter.com%252Fposter%252FMPW-6282%252FPaper_Lion.html%3B450%3B758).
Yep, not quite like the days of making the rookies stand up in the dining hall and sing their school fight song.
Another thing about all this is that _Martin wasn’t a rookie._ This is his second year with the Dolphins … so even those knuckleheads excusing “it’s just rookie hazing” or “it’s team building for the new guys” are just spouting horseshit. Martin already put up with the rookie hazing crap last year. Incognito (and maybe other veterans) just kept the abuse going. Workplace harassment … that’s an apt description.
---
### Author:  [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/28 "2013-11-06T21:03:35Z")
A couple of points -
Incognito has a loooong rap sheet of infractions and being kicked off teams going back to high-school. That means that everyone hiring him along the way did it with their eyes wide open as to what they were getting. Is he THAT special that we need him-and-only-him and are willing to put up with the bullshit baggage he brings along? Apparently the answer has repeatedly been a resounding YES. Until he fucks up (again) and we have to can him (again - oh well). Coaches and GMs, this is your mess.
Football player are not on-average the brainy types (yeah, I know, there are a lot of exceptions). For the ones who make it to the NFL, many have had much in their lives “handled” for them. So, we expect them to make wise choices? We expect them to know the right thing to do generally? Um, yeah…not so much. Stick them in the hot-house culture of the locker room, give them obscene amounts of money, what do you expect the results to be?
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### Author:  [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/29 "2013-11-06T21:55:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> “At this level, you’re a man. You’re not a little boy. You’re not a freshman in college. You’re a man.”
Voice mail left by Incognito:
> [@](#):
>
> “Hey, wassup, you half (expletive) piece of (expletive). I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. I’ll (expletive) in your (expletive) mouth. I’m gonna slap your (expletive) mouth, I’m gonna slap your real mother across the face (laughter). (Expletive) you, you’re still a rookie. I’ll kill you.”
What a man. Hope he’s proud.
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/30 "2013-11-06T21:56:28Z")
> [@Icarus](#):
>
> Football player are not on-average the brainy types (yeah, I know, there are a lot of exceptions).
Not so sure that has to be a conditional statement. Pros in any sport make their game look awesome to us lay people. After dedicating more than half their lives to the game they can do stuff with instinctive expertise before we even realize what needs to be done. If the league were packed, or at even respectably peppered with brainiacs one would expect oafish “bullies” to become the butt of more sophisticated pranks.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/31 "2013-11-06T22:10:28Z")
According to [this story](http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/05/dolphins-coaches-asked-richie-incognito-toughen-jonathan-martin-up/?sct=hp_t2_a8&eref=sihp), Dolphins coaches had asked Incognito to “toughen up” Martin.
That sure went well.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/32 "2013-11-06T22:26:27Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#):
>
> Not so sure that has to be a conditional statement. Pros in any sport make their game look awesome to us lay people. After dedicating more than half their lives to the game they can do stuff with instinctive expertise before we even realize what needs to be done. If the league were packed, or at even respectably peppered with brainiacs one would expect oafish “bullies” to become the butt of more sophisticated pranks.
If you look at the reported averages of [NFL players](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test#Median_score_by_profession) and compare them to other professions, it’s rather interesting. Offensive linemen are generally the more capable players, with intelligence in the general range of people in sales. It’s the receivers and running backs that tend toward the security guard or welder range. Overall, it seems that NFL players have pretty much the same range of intelligence as the general population.
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/33 "2013-11-06T22:31:29Z")
NM
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### Author:  [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/34 "2013-11-06T23:15:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Prize-fighting. My father was a lightweight fighter in his youth. I even trained some as a child, lacking only strength, speed and coordination. Love heavyweight boxing, I weep that the technology wasn’t available to really capture the fierce grace and beauty of Ali in his prime.
>
> But its wrong. Its just flat wrong, paying people to beat the crap out of each other. I used to talk myself into it, hell, its on TV anyway, won’t get any better if I watch it or not, MAN! did you see that uppercut…!
>
> What was that, a few years back, some major hitter in the NFL was dying of a brain disease maybe brought on by the constant injuries? They asked him if he would do it again, knowing what would happen and he said yes, because there was no rush in the world like a hundred thousand people cheering at you. Can we actually do anything about that, or is that something about testosterone poisoning we just have to accept?
>
> Also, it would be good if some of the more polite teams, the ones that aren’t so pushy and obnoxious about it would win a Super Bowl once in a while. No one in particular comes to mind, of course, just a general observation.
Well said. Boxing now is as dead to me as [Franky Leal](http://uppercutting.kinja.com/boxing-is-a-goddamned-tragedy-1450455925) (Warning do not watch the linked clip unless you’re prepared to see a young man die before your eyes).
NFL (and all other contact sports) need to wake up and remake themselves before they follow the same dark path.
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### Author:  [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/35 "2013-11-07T20:55:58Z")
Thomas Boswell has a column which is pretty sobering. Most football fans are probably aware of all this individually, but when you list all these things in one column it really makes one realize the extent of the problems with NFL football.
> **[Perspective | What has the NFL become?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/richie-incognito-bullying-allegations-are-the-latest-in-long-list-of-nfl-problems/2013/11/06/a29f48a0-46fe-11e3-b6f8-3782ff6cb769_print.html)**
>
> COLUMN | A popular sport may come undone by a growing list of confidence-shaking problems.
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### Author:  [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/36 "2013-11-07T23:40:12Z")
the problem is that sports have been sissified. you’ve got protective measures up the wazoo.
play without it. hard physical sport should lead to injury.
up the pay and we could have gladiators again. low retirement costs.
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### Author:  [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/37 "2013-11-08T00:13:43Z")
The bounty scandal and concussion conspiracy tipped the scales for me. I’m out.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/38 "2013-11-08T00:25:17Z")
> [@johnpost](#):
>
> the problem is that sports have been sissified. you’ve got protective measures up the wazoo.
>
> play without it. hard physical sport should lead to injury.
>
> up the pay and we could have gladiators again. low retirement costs.
I have seen it argued that helmets have contributed to more injury than they have protected from. the more pads they wear, the more risks they take.
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### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/39 "2013-11-08T01:24:43Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#):
>
> I have seen it argued that helmets have contributed to more injury than they have protected from. the more pads they wear, the more risks they take.
Yeah, people believe and say stupid shit all the time.
Take helmets out of the game and we go back to the days of deaths and skull fractures.
As dangerous as the game is, football fatalities are exceedingly rare now, due in part to safety features like the helmet.
Yes, the feeling of safety lets some people think they can take more risks. The solution isn’t to remove the safety features. That’s akin to arguing we need to remove roll cages and stability control from SUVs since drivers feel safer about driving recklessly.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-nfl-you-are-making-it-hard-to-be-a-fan/673199/40 "2013-11-08T02:56:26Z")
> [@johnpost](#):
>
> the problem is that sports have been sissified. you’ve got protective measures up the wazoo.
>
> play without it. hard physical sport should lead to injury.
>
> up the pay and we could have gladiators again. low retirement costs.
That’s a start, I suppose.
How about instituting a 162-game season? People will do what they have to do to remain viable for tomorrow’s game.
And I can start following a team with the knowledge that I don’t have to wait a week between opportunities to watch them. Seriously, who’s got TIME for that kind of crap?
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