# Dear parapsychologists, I invite you to convince me that you are scientists. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924 "2007-09-20T22:57:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/221 "2007-10-03T22:10:17Z")
[QUOTE=recessiveMeme] I didn’t. However, I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that Fogg probably got a little [schadenfreude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude) out of the event _after_ it occurred. [/quote] Schadenfreude, huh? I didn’t think of that. Unfortunately I don’t have the game on Tivo anymore (I was going to keep it, but must have deleted it by accident) so I’ll accept your conclusion that Fogg, at least, had nothing to do with the incident at all (aside from losing the first bat, obviously.) The incident was very strange, though – that sort of thing doesn’t normally happen. But I’m willing to accept it as some very bizarre coincidence and move on. > [@](#): > > Now, I’m loath to play “internet psychoanalyst” and I wasn’t even going to bring this up until you mentioned [projection bias](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_bias), _but_… > > In [post 158](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9020482&postcount=158), as well as other places, I and others asked something along the lines of, “How do you differentiate between your own feelings and the feelings of any ghosts that happen to be in your vicinity?” It may not seem like much, but I think this is really the most interesting question in the thread. > > In posts such as [122](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9014391&postcount=122) and [141](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9018713&postcount=141), you characterize the emotions you’ve experience via ghosts as largely negative with ghosts “bragging” about crashing cars in a way you find “disturbing” or ghosts tending to be “VERY angry.” You go on to say that you used to be “an angry person” but that, since you’ve become less angry, you don’t perceive ghost so often anymore. Really, I can’t help but wonder if this isn’t a little projection of your own. Perhaps at some level you perceived a negative aspect to your personality-- like say, excessive anger-- and then, rather than considering the source of those feelings and dealing with them, disowned them and projected them to some external source. Postulating “ghosts” as that source is certainly more creative/fanciful than normal, but nobody said it has to make sense. Yours is a very cohesive and rational explanation, and yes, at times I’ve wondered if that’s indeed the truth. I’ll also state that most of what I’ve described so far comes from a single “case study” who is, from what I can tell, a very _atypical_ ghost. Most “ghosts” don’t affect reality beyond rattling chains, stomping across the floor, knocking plates out of your hand, or flicking the lights on and off. Most ghosts do NOT randomly slaughter human beings as if the afterlife were some type of violent video game!! :eek: :eek: :eek: As for the emotional connection – well, there’s problems there too. Yes, sometimes this ghost (I’ll call him Bartholomew – not his real name) gets very angry when I’m very angry. But sometimes…including one recent incident…Bartholomew doesn’t act out until after I’ve already _disconnected_ from my anger. Once, I was actually in a very happy, excited state of mind…but Bartholomew got EXTREMELY angry, because I wasn’t paying attention to him anymore. And at least one incident came from a “remote viewing” exercise in which Bartholomew was very upset & feeling lonely, but I myself was in a state of Zen-like peace. So…does this mean I’m able to affect reality by sheer force of imagination?? (I’d rather not go there, even if it’s the truth!) Is life itself some type of dream or video game? Or is it all some kind of VERY bizarre, VERY disturbing coincidence? You can see my dilemma here. The good news is, Bartholomew has matured considerably in just the last few years. He understands that human beings are real individuals, not just random events. He also has an _enormous_ amount of compassion, though he’s not really aware of it yet. That’s why I said, at the very beginning of this thread, that my experiences are evidence of _something_ supernatural. But remember, “supernatural” only means that science hasn’t explained it yet. Maybe science will _never_ explain it completely – or when science does verify the afterlife, our species will have evolved to a form which is no longer recognizably human. Time will tell, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![recessiveMeme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@recessiveMeme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/recessiveMeme)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/222 "2007-10-03T22:14:32Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] There is a show on TV called “Psychic Detectives” you might want to catch. Psychics help the police solve their cases. [/quote] Care to provide a cite for a documented instance in which a psychic helped the police solve a case? The wiki article on the topic of [psychic detectives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_detective) claims that: > [@Psychic Detective](#): > > No psychic detective has ever been praised or given official recognition by the F.B.I. or US national news for solving a crime, preventing a crime, or finding a kidnap victim or corpse. This certainly confirms my suspicions. Got anything to refute that? It seems like any psychic detective worth their salt would go out of their way to document their crime-solving prowess. Say there’s a missing kid or something and I, as a psychic, get a vision of where the kid is. Before I do anything else, I ought to document somehow. I could write down the details of my vision and get it notarized. I could videotape myself explaining the details of the situation to a group of people that would later be able to confirm my awesome powers prognostication. I could simply scribble “The kid is in an orange boathouse” on a post-it note, put a time/date on the thing, and have a police officer initial it on the way to the scene. …the point is, as a bona fide psychic investigator with a proven track record of being able to solve crimes via my mysterious abilities I’d not only have the opportunity to use my powers for good, I’d also become rich/famous and lend credibility to my psychic brethren all over the world. It’s kinda funny that nobody’s done it so far, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/223 "2007-10-03T22:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I was a teenager when Jeanne Dixon predicted the Beatles would die in a crash in Australia. [/quote] Wouldn’t the most likely explanation be that “predicting the future” doesn’t work, and Dixon is a fraud, and she does not speak for real psychics, even though she claims she does? (And how would you have reacted if the Beatles died in a plane crash…in New Zealand?) > [@](#): > > As someone noted, a real psychic wouldn’t be in a rundown house giving readings for $50 a pop. Actually, that’s exactly where you’d find them. You’re assuming that everybody desires fame & fortune (and it’s true, most Americans do) but in reality, “real” psychics have no such lofty ambitions. In order to truly experience visions, you MUST align yourself with the will of the Universe. (It’s analogous to “giving your life to Christ”, except there’s no mythological figure involved.) And if The Universe decides to put you in a shack on Venice Beach where you give palm readings to random strangers for ten bucks a pop – well, that’s your fate. To gain fame & fortune, you have to _bend the Universe to your will._ That method’s fine and dandy (as long as you don’t become a serial killer or something) but don’t expect any fancy visions that way. At least, none that you don’t make up out of whole cloth. ---
**Author:** ![recessiveMeme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@recessiveMeme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/recessiveMeme)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/224 "2007-10-03T22:31:00Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Time will tell, I suppose. [/quote] Well, there’s always that. Thanks for indulging me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/225 "2007-10-03T22:44:24Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Yours is a very cohesive and rational explanation, and yes, at times I’ve wondered if that’s indeed the truth. I’ll also state that most of what I’ve described so far comes from a single “case study” who is, from what I can tell, a very _atypical_ ghost. Most “ghosts” don’t affect reality beyond rattling chains, stomping across the floor, knocking plates out of your hand, or flicking the lights on and off. Most ghosts do NOT randomly slaughter human beings as if the afterlife were some type of violent video game!! :eek: :eek: :eek: As for the emotional connection – well, there’s problems there too. Yes, sometimes this ghost (I’ll call him Bartholomew – not his real name) gets very angry when I’m very angry. But sometimes…including one recent incident…Bartholomew doesn’t act out until after I’ve already _disconnected_ from my anger. Once, I was actually in a very happy, excited state of mind…but Bartholomew got EXTREMELY angry, because I wasn’t paying attention to him anymore. And at least one incident came from a “remote viewing” exercise in which Bartholomew was very upset & feeling lonely, but I myself was in a state of Zen-like peace. So…does this mean I’m able to affect reality by sheer force of imagination?? (I’d rather not go there, even if it’s the truth!) Is life itself some type of dream or video game? Or is it all some kind of VERY bizarre, VERY disturbing coincidence? You can see my dilemma here. The good news is, Bartholomew has matured considerably in just the last few years. He understands that human beings are real individuals, not just random events. He also has an _enormous_ amount of compassion, though he’s not really aware of it yet. That’s why I said, at the very beginning of this thread, that my experiences are evidence of _something_ supernatural. But remember, “supernatural” only means that science hasn’t explained it yet. Maybe science will _never_ explain it completely – or when science does verify the afterlife, our species will have evolved to a form which is no longer recognizably human. Time will tell, I suppose. [/QUOTE] Okaaay… I really shouldn’t ask, but, in the interest of factual curiosity, does “Bartholomew” have direct, telekeneitic/poltergeist effects on the world, to your observation? And what does it mean to “disconnect” from one’s anger? Is that like getting over it, or more like suppressing it? (I’m wondering if you didn’t leave some trace of smoldering resentment at the back of your mind or something; I find myself doing that at times.) How much ‘lag’ was there between you calming down and Bartholomew doing so? And, on another issue, is that “remote viewing” like the usual defintion (see through walls, easily verifiable scientifically), or more of a fancy term for an ordinary, well-known phenomenon, the way your “predicting the future” was? The fact that you quoted it makes me wonder how literally you are using the term. [QUOTE=KGS] Actually, that’s exactly where you’d find them. You’re assuming that everybody desires fame & fortune (and it’s true, most Americans do) but in reality, “real” psychics have no such lofty ambitions. In order to truly experience visions, you MUST align yourself with the will of the Universe. (It’s analogous to “giving your life to Christ”, except there’s no mythological figure involved.) And if The Universe decides to put you in a shack on Venice Beach where you give palm readings to random strangers for ten bucks a pop – well, that’s your fate. To gain fame & fortune, you have to bend the Universe to your will. That method’s fine and dandy (as long as you don’t become a serial killer or something) but don’t expect any fancy visions that way. At least, none that you don’t make up out of whole cloth. [/QUOTE] Why charge money at all then? Wouldn’t the universe prefer you predicted for free, and worked a ‘side job’ for living expenses? If it’s against you getting rich and famous, that is. (Also I have serious doubts that anyone can take any action without “bending the universe to their will”; how can you tell if you’re bending it in the approved, $10/shack way, as opposed to the comfortable-income way? Please, a simple answer, no preaching, I’m looking for a summary, not a sermon.) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/226 "2007-10-03T22:58:15Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] I (And if Randi is preying on those gullible enough to believe they were psychics, then he at least differs from the other predatory sorts under discussion here in that he’s actively trying to dry out his own supply of suckers and put himself out of business. It goes without saying that Randi is not preying on _real_ psychics. To them, _he_ would be prey.) [/QUOTE] But what if Randi’s prey are the suckers gullible enough to give him money? What if he is making up stories that never happened, making himself look like a hero, telling tall tales of things that didn’t really happen, things that he couldn’t do in real life, and persuading people to give him money for it? Wouldn’t that make him a fraud, as bad as Sylvia Browne? And shouldn’t sceptics object, and try to bring him down? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/227 "2007-10-03T23:24:44Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] But what if Randi’s prey are the suckers gullible enough to give him money? [/quote] I give money to colleges. I give money to educational causes, including the James Randi Educational Foundation. All donations go towards education, whether they be college science classrooms or lectures about critical thinking and how to avoid being taken. Does that make me gullible? Am I prey of universities? Does endowing a chair make the donor a patsy? Are alumni foundations suckers? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/228 "2007-10-03T23:37:02Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] But what if Randi’s prey are the suckers gullible enough to give him money? What if he is making up stories that never happened, making himself look like a hero, telling tall tales of things that didn’t really happen, things that he couldn’t do in real life, and persuading people to give him money for it? Wouldn’t that make him a fraud, as bad as Sylvia Browne? And shouldn’t sceptics object, and try to bring him down? [/QUOTE] This is off-topic. If you have actual evidence of your claims, and not “what ifs” to hide behind, please start a new thread on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/229 "2007-10-03T23:40:17Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] But what if Randi’s prey are the suckers gullible enough to give him money? What if he is making up stories that never happened, making himself look like a hero, telling tall tales of things that didn’t really happen, things that he couldn’t do in real life, and persuading people to give him money for it? Wouldn’t that make him a fraud, as bad as Sylvia Browne? And shouldn’t sceptics object, and try to bring him down? [/QUOTE] And if George W Bush were Jesus he’d have a beard. Is there **any** reason for any reasonably sane person to believe that Randi his faked things in the manner you describe? 'Cause it sounds like a complete load to me. Especially when you added “things that he couldn’t do in real life.” What, pray tell, would that be? Remember, he’s not claiming impossible powers like the fakers he exposes. This sounds like either blind, mindless projection or extremely poor copy-pasting, I don’t know which. But, yes, were Randi not actually running a foundation, or debunking psychics, or going on talk shows (perhaps we’re imagining all that), then he would be defrauding “gullible suckers” into donating to him by pretending he was doing those things. But I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. On preview: Yeah, if this wasn’t just a harebrained hypothetical, shove your “evidence” in another thread. Don’t interrupt the current hijack of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/230 "2007-10-04T00:33:47Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Is there **any** reason for any reasonably sane person to believe that Randi his faked things in the manner you describe? 'Cause it sounds like a complete load to me. [/QUOTE] I’ve given conclusive proof of it on numerous previous occasions. Randi has admitted directly that he has lied. his supporters are perfectly aware that he lies. They don’t care. They hate me for exposing his fraud. I’m not going to go through it all again. If I did, Czarcasm or Tomanddeb would throw another tantrum and close the thread. Anyway, I’m not going to hijack this thread with another proof of Randi’ basic dishonesty. Other than pointing out the error of the one who claimed that Randi isn’t making money from this. I pointed out that error, but I will say nothing further on the subject. Just go on talking about parapsychology, and not Randi. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/231 "2007-10-04T00:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I’ve given conclusive proof of it on numerous previous occasions. Randi has admitted directly that he has lied. his supporters are perfectly aware that he lies. They don’t care. They hate me for exposing his fraud. I’m not going to go through it all again. If I did, Czarcasm or Tomanddeb would throw another tantrum and close the thread. Anyway, I’m not going to hijack this thread with another proof of Randi’ basic dishonesty. Other than pointing out the error of the one who claimed that Randi isn’t making money from this. I pointed out that error, but I will say nothing further on the subject. Just go on talking about parapsychology, and not Randi. [/QUOTE] Oh, it’s you! I didn’t recognize your name for a minute. I remember your arguments now. Yes, let’s carry on Randi-attacking-free. (Though it’s been a little while since we talked about the actual _study_ of supposedly psychic phenomena, and not the supposed phenomena themselves. Parapsychology _is_ the study of it, right?) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/232 "2007-10-04T00:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Oh, it’s you! I didn’t recognize your name for a minute. I remember your arguments now. Yes, let’s carry on Randi-attacking-free. (Though it’s been a little while since we talked about the actual _study_ of supposedly psychic phenomena, and not the supposed phenomena themselves. Parapsychology _is_ the study of it, right?) [/QUOTE] I’m sure that as soon as they find any, they’ll study it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/233 "2007-10-04T01:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Wouldn’t the most likely explanation be that “predicting the future” doesn’t work, and Dixon is a fraud, and she does not speak for real psychics, even though she claims she does? (And how would you have reacted if the Beatles died in a plane crash…in New Zealand?) [/quote] I would have been mightily impressed. Back then I was young and dumb, and was reading lots of books on ESP and UFOs and the like. Forty years on with nary a sign of a true psychic or alien does tend to enforce one’s hard won skepticism. Dixon was already famous for supposedly predicting JFKs assassination. Both you and **lekatt** tall about “real psychics” without ever showing us any. > [@](#): > > Actually, that’s exactly where you’d find them. You’re assuming that everybody desires fame & fortune (and it’s true, most Americans do) but in reality, “real” psychics have no such lofty ambitions. In order to truly experience visions, you MUST align yourself with the will of the Universe. (It’s analogous to “giving your life to Christ”, except there’s no mythological figure involved.) And if The Universe decides to put you in a shack on Venice Beach where you give palm readings to random strangers for ten bucks a pop – well, that’s your fate. > > To gain fame & fortune, you have to _bend the Universe to your will._ That method’s fine and dandy (as long as you don’t become a serial killer or something) but don’t expect any fancy visions that way. At least, none that you don’t make up out of whole cloth. Bend the universe to my will? Only if you define knowing a winning lottery number or the winner of the fifth race at Belmont bending the universe to my will. Or someone who would you his or her powers to do good. Know any of these? Or are you saying that a psychic can’t actually talk about here visions or else she won’t be aligned and won’t have it? That’s damn convenient, and damn unfalsifiable too. Hey, I’ve got the strength of 10, but I lose it anytime I’m proud enough to demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/234 "2007-10-04T01:49:41Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] I really shouldn’t ask, but, in the interest of factual curiosity, does “Bartholomew” have direct, telekeneitic/poltergeist effects on the world, to your observation? [/quote] Clearly, yes – it’s a requirement for the theory to work. > [@](#): > > And what does it mean to “disconnect” from one’s anger? Is that like getting over it, or more like suppressing it? It’s a mental trick I learned in meditation class. I’d presume they teach the same in Anger Management classes, though I’ve never been to one. > [@](#): > > How much ‘lag’ was there between you calming down and Bartholomew doing so? Usually several minutes, but occasionally up to 2-3 days. It depends. There’s a definite correlation between the time lag and the severity of the accident, though. > [@](#): > > And, on another issue, is that “remote viewing” like the usual defintion (see through walls, easily verifiable scientifically), or more of a fancy term for an ordinary, well-known phenomenon, the way your “predicting the future” was? It’s more like a reconstruction of a specific event combined with astral projection. That’s _probably_ how remote viewing works, but I’m not 100% sure, which is why I used quotes. > [@](#): > > Why charge money at all then? Wouldn’t the universe prefer you predicted for free, and worked a ‘side job’ for living expenses? If you have a special talent, why not charge money for it? Communism would be nice, if it actually worked, but it doesn’t. We live in a capitalist society, so we all need MONEY to survive. There’s no getting around that. > [@](#): > > (Also I have serious doubts that anyone can take any action without “bending the universe to their will”; how can you tell if you’re bending it in the approved, $10/shack way, as opposed to the comfortable-income way? Please, a simple answer, no preaching, I’m looking for a summary, not a sermon.) Anybody can get where they need to be without bending a damn thing. The first step is getting in touch with who you really are. For many, that’s the hardest part, and many others reach the end of their lives without even getting _that_ far. As for your question, “How can you tell?” Well…effort begets results. I can’t speak for Dixon, Randi, or any controversial public figure – for all I know, they may have never connected with who they really are, and built themselves a golden nest, surrounding themselves with money, fame, and adoring fans, all for the purpose of _avoiding_ the truth who they really are (which happens all the time, “getting in touch with yourself” and “bending the universe to your will” are mutually exclusive.) On the other hand, look at Arnold Schwarzenegger – he’s been a highly successful bodybuilder, actor, and politician all in the same life. That’s impressive, and requires more than just luck. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/235 "2007-10-04T02:07:26Z")
[QUOTE=recessiveMeme] Care to provide a cite for a documented instance in which a psychic helped the police solve a case? The wiki article on the topic of [psychic detectives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_detective) claims that: This certainly confirms my suspicions. Got anything to refute that? It seems like any psychic detective worth their salt would go out of their way to document their crime-solving prowess. Say there’s a missing kid or something and I, as a psychic, get a vision of where the kid is. Before I do anything else, I ought to document somehow. I could write down the details of my vision and get it notarized. I could videotape myself explaining the details of the situation to a group of people that would later be able to confirm my awesome powers prognostication. I could simply scribble “The kid is in an orange boathouse” on a post-it note, put a time/date on the thing, and have a police officer initial it on the way to the scene. …the point is, as a bona fide psychic investigator with a proven track record of being able to solve crimes via my mysterious abilities I’d not only have the opportunity to use my powers for good, I’d also become rich/famous and lend credibility to my psychic brethren all over the world. It’s kinda funny that nobody’s done it so far, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] You don’t know about psychics, they are not like the general population. Money is not a goal, neither is fame, but these things can be tools. Where does it say one must receive an award to be good? Doing good is reward in itself. Some day you will understand. Watch the show and forget about others providing you knowledge, if you want knowledge and ultimately wisdom, go look for it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/236 "2007-10-04T02:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Dixon was already famous for supposedly predicting JFKs assassination. Both you and **lekatt** tall about “real psychics” without ever showing us any. [/quote] What am I, cooked liver?? 🆒 Can’t speak for **lekatt** , but I fear you have a very deluded picture of what a “real psychic” is. > [@](#): > > Bend the universe to my will? Only if you define knowing a winning lottery number or the winner of the fifth race at Belmont bending the universe to my will. Or someone who would you his or her powers to do good. Know any of these? What’s wrong with discovering a cure for cancer, recording a hit single, being elected to Congress, starting a successful corporation, etc.? Winning the lottery would be nice, but…why must the Universe do all the work for you? (And for the record, I’ve known some lottery winners who frittered away all their money and ultimately went into bankruptcy. It happens A LOT more often than you’d think. Some people just can’t handle free money.) > [@](#): > > Or are you saying that a psychic can’t actually talk about here visions or else she won’t be aligned and won’t have it? That’s damn convenient, and damn unfalsifiable too. If you want a genuine psychic reading, it’s not just the reader who has to be aligned. YOU need to be aligned as well. Drifting around the outer planets will teach you nothing unless you’re still connected with Mother Earth. Try [grounding & centering](http://www.robinwood.com/LivingtreeGrove/Magic/MagicPages/GroundCenter.html), see how it works for you. That’s the _foundation_ of the philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/237 "2007-10-04T02:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Can’t speak for **lekatt** , but I fear you have a very deluded picture of what a “real psychic” is. [/QUOTE] And a “real psychic” would be who, again? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/238 "2007-10-04T02:40:56Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Van Praque, Edwards, Browne, and many more must have something going for them as they are in great demand. There is a show on TV called “Psychic Detectives” you might want to catch. Psychics help the police solve their cases. [/QUOTE] There was also a show on TV called “Assy McGee” you might want to catch some reruns of, if you can find them. It features a trigger-happy pair of talking buttocks (whose voice is reminiscent of Sylvester Stallone’s) as a 70’s-style vigilante cop. I saw several episodes of it on television, so I laugh at all you so-called “skeptics” out there who doubt the existence of a talking butthole who’s also a police detective who runs around shooting people like Dirty Harry, using a large pistol that appears to float in the air beside him because a set of disembodied asscheeks obviously doesn’t have any hands. And before you say “that was just a stupid cartoon,” I issue ALL of you a challenge: show me the study, _any_ “scientific” study that has been done to compare _real_ talking-ass detectives to the so-called “stupid cartoon” talking-ass detectives. Oh well, just another figment of skeptical imagination. I guess we’re all just talking assholes, to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/239 "2007-10-04T13:10:02Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Crime DOES pay and there are a million suckers out there. Here’s hoping you’re not one of them. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] In the last research I read criminals made about $23 a week from their life of crime. As for your implied statement, it’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924/240 "2007-10-04T14:51:22Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] There was also a show on TV called “Assy McGee” you might want to catch some reruns of, if you can find them. It features a trigger-happy pair of talking buttocks (whose voice is reminiscent of Sylvester Stallone’s) as a 70’s-style vigilante cop. I saw several episodes of it on television, so I laugh at all you so-called “skeptics” out there who doubt the existence of a talking butthole who’s also a police detective who runs around shooting people like Dirty Harry, using a large pistol that appears to float in the air beside him because a set of disembodied asscheeks obviously doesn’t have any hands. And before you say “that was just a stupid cartoon,” I issue ALL of you a challenge: show me the study, _any_ “scientific” study that has been done to compare _real_ talking-ass detectives to the so-called “stupid cartoon” talking-ass detectives. Oh well, just another figment of skeptical imagination. I guess we’re all just talking assholes, to some extent. [/QUOTE] Science is not the only thing going in reality. It seems to me many think it is, living in a glass cage denying all reality that happens outside of it. I don’t normally answer such crude posts, but…you might start here: > **[Noreen Renier - Psychic Detective](https://noreenrenier.com/media/articles/rhineresearch.htm)** > > Noreen Renier is a well known psychic detective working over 380 unsolved cases with city, county and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. then look here: [http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal\_mind/forensics/psychics/index.html](http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/psychics/index.html) if you have any real interest at all beyond the denial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parapsychologists-i-invite-you-to-convince-me-that-you-are-scientists/419924.md?page=13)