Dear parapsychologists, I invite you to convince me that you are scientists.

Great Debates
241

I don’t need to wait for someday-- I’ve got understanding right now! Based on your reply, I understand that you’ve either chosen to ignore my request for a specific example or simply don’t have one to provide. Further, I understand that you’ve either misread my post, chosen to respond to a more “favorable” interpretation of it, or are responding to something someone else said.

Nowhere in my post did I assert that one must “receive an award to be good.” I’m quite comfortable with idea that “good” is still “good” whether or not it is recognized/rewarded. Please don’t condescend to me with the “some day” nonsense.

Ya see, I postulated three potential “goods” that could come to a psychic detective who made an effort to document their skills:[ul][li]Expanded opportunity to use their powers to do good[]Potential for wealth and fame[]A chance to establish psychics in general as credible and worthwhile[/ul][/li]
Let’s address your money/fame issue first…
I’ll assume- for the sake of argument- that psychics don’t want money and fame. Fine. Let our successful psychic detective donates all his money to some worthwhile charity. Let’s say that he keeps just enough to eek-out a humble existence and Jerry’s Kids get the rest. Not only is he helping individuals on a case-by-case basis-- he’s helping all those kids he’ll probably never even meet. Remarkably noble! Of course, the fame probably can’t be helped. As the worlds first legitimate psychic, people are going to want to know more about the guy. But hey, if he plays it cool for a year or two eventually the buzz will die down. And, once again, in the meantime he can use that popularity to help social causes. “Yes, I do have psychic powers, Kent… but that’s not why I’m here today. No, today I’m here to talk about muscular dystrophy.” Everyone wins!

And now my other two “goods”…
Obviously, by establishing his credibility our psychic will develop a level of notoriety that will make him more visible to those who need help. In a sea of questionable choices, our guy will shine. That’s what I mean with regard to “expanded opportunities to do good.” Imagine if you will, a poor family in West Virginia who’s lost their beloved young son, Bosco. Local law enforcement just can’t crack the case and Bosco’s mother is beside herself. Bosco’s father hasn’t come up out of the mine for days-- he just can’t face the world. Anyhoo, it seems to Bosco’s mom that a psychic detective is really their only chance at this point… but, being poor, they only have the money to hire one. Where she would have been presented with a million questionable choices on the internet or late-night tv before, now she can just flip to the “accredited psychic detective” section of the phone book and- hey!- there’s only one entry! The choice is clear. Bosco will now have a chance to grow up to be an alcoholic.

Further, our intrepid psychic detective can now be an ambassador of sorts for psychics everywhere. Wherever people used to snort and say, “Whatever, you crystal rubbing freak!”, they might now be inclined to say, “I’ll admit, I was skeptical… but that thing with that Bosco kid in West Virginia. Maybe there’s something to this.” Sure, there will always be skeptics, but you could sway a lot of skeptical minds with even the simple sorts of documentation I described in my last post. Our psychic hero could certainly take the wind of of Randi’s sails and that alone would be a huge victory for downtrodden psychics everywhere.

In summation… if there is a psychic detective out there who’s legitimate, he’s out of his mind to conceal himself. To completely ignore the amazing potential for good he must be a horrible, selfish bastard or he’s quite literally insane. Great power, great responsibility-- ya know?

…or you could accept that no such person exists. Give it some thought and perhaps some day you will understand. :wink:

242

Reread my post, I did not say what you assumed I said. Maybe my last post will help. I think you are gesturing not reading.

243

Well, why don’t you enlighten us?

Somewhere in this thread you have stated that “real psychics” may use the “science” that is “cold reading” to do their job. What else does their job entail? What tools or “sciences” aid them in their quest? Why is a skeptic around them a problem to their powers? (Do skeptics have some kind of “anti-psychic” powers that they are unaware of?)

244

Lekatt doesn’t agree with your description of psychic.

245

Interesting choice of words.

Look at this this way…if you were able to predict everything that happens, before it happens, how do you think you’d feel? You would GO CRAZY. Literally. There would be no surprise, no magic in the universe. You would know exactly what lottery numbers to choose, which horse to pick, which sports team to bet on. Yeah, you’d be rich & famous beyond your wildest dreams. But the lack of surprise & magic in your life would be utter soul death. (Wasn’t there a Twilight Zone episode based on this concept?)

Think about it…if tomorrow you met the perfect guy (or girl, if that’s your taste) and you knew exactly when you’d get married, have children, go on vacations, all the way up to you kneeling by your husband’s bedside as he said goodbye to you with his final breath…and you KNEW all this before you even told him your name…would you even bother saying hello? I think not. After all, why bother? You already know what’s going to happen long before it happens.

Besides, there’s an inherent prejudice against people with psychic abilities. For instance…if lekatt said: “I predict…a cargo plane will crash into a market near Kinshasa, Congo…a twin engine turboprop of Russian origin…initial report of 19 killed, but the actual death toll will be between 32 and 35…” And today you read the paper and see this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071004/ap_on_re_af/congo_plane_crash

You wouldn’t assume the world’s most accurate psychic. You’d suspect a terrorist.

246

I didn’t actually provide a description of psychic. I was asking for one.

And… why do you refer to yourself in the third person? Just curious.

247

The fictional character I remember most who could do that was the protagonist of Dune (Muad’Dib?)

But why would a person with true psychic abilities have to focus on tragedies to prove their powers? Why couldn’t they, for instance, predict stuff like lottery tickets? Or far more mundane stuff, like what a person is going to eat for lunch, breakfast, dinner during the next 7 days, for instance? They could make that prediction, seal it in an envelope and compare it with the actual results. And they wouldn’t even have to be a 100% accurate.

But, again, what is the definition of a “real psychic”'s power? I’m still waiting for an answer on that one.

248

Agreed about lottery winners - there’s a Ziegler cartoon with a couple sitting in front of a shack,with the man saying “Those Publishers Clearing House dollars” sure didn’t last long. But why would psychic powers assist in any of these other things, as opposed to intelligence, good luck, and a good work ethic? Ten years back there was a CEO out here in the Valley who claimed that space aliens were responsible for the semiconductor revolution. Sometimes people just do things without supernatural assistance.

A professor of psychology, now retired, had an interesting memoir in SI, about how the readee’s belief works. As a kid he learned how to read palms, and started working for a carnival. He was very good at it, in the sense that his customers were convinced. In fact, he was starting to be get convinced that he had some special powers. Then he decided to give his customers the opposite of the advice that he got from a palm. They were just as convinced he had powers.

Yes, if both sides believe, then both sides are convinced there is something there. It’s the same as believers in the Bible saying that you just have to come at it willing to believe in order to believe. I’m open to being convinced, but I’m going to start from a position of skepticism. If that means I’ll never be convinced, that’s fine, but I don’t have a fantasy-prone personality.

249

Though I registered last February I’ve been lurking here for years and, I must say, your ability to hand-wave past anything approaching a meaningful dialogue has always impressed me. As I was writing it, I knew full well you wouldn’t actually address any concrete aspect of my post, but rather, would parry with a series of vague remarks and references to questionable websites (possibly even your own) which, in your mind, serve to somehow substantiate your point. I guess I just wanted to enjoy “the lekatt experience” firsthand. Thanks for not disappointing.

Just out of curiosity, which of the links you provided should prove most enlightening? The homepage of world-famous psychic detective Noreen Renier with it’s interesting color scheme and derth of verifiable facts? Or is it the strange editorial written by Kathleen Ramsland which, after offering some vague claims without references, proceeds to delve into a treatment of psychics throughout history? Is there a particular piece of information from either source you’d like to discuss, or is the totality of both links supposed to produce some utterly convincing gestalt?

250

Such a psychic would know if he reveals himself or not - in fact he’d have no free will. But he could always claim a limited power that would get away from all the problems you mentioned. Even such a limited ability would revolutionize the laws of physics - he’d know if the cat was alive or dead, for instance.

Which is exactly the problem with the depiction of the supernatural in popular culture - the writers, not understanding science, have no clue about the impact of even the most minor of these revelations. Look, if Ghostbusters happened, would they be doing parties or would they be involved in a major research effort to understand the supernatural? I think pretty much all advocates for psychic powers suffer from a massive failure of imagination.

251

Apparently we’re talking about two different things. No doubt, this stems from a terribly vague definition of “psychic.” I’ll clarify by saying I don’t think a person being “psychic” necessarily confers upon them godlike foresight in all matters. I’m basing my understanding of “psychic” on any number of fictionalized accounts from movies and television in which, with appropriate conscious effort, a psychic can obtain limited information about specific topics. If we were to adopt your understanding (or, at least, The Twilight Zone’s understanding) of the the concept… yes, I could see how having absolute foreknowledge of essentially everything bad that would ever happen to you could cramp your style. Incidentally, which variety of psychic do you suppose is most common: the sort with absolute knowledge of everything in the future or the sort with the limited ability to perceive specific bits of information?

I don’t think there’s a “prejudice against people with psychic abilities”, but I do think there is a tendency to be skeptical of people who make unverifiable claims. When someone scoffs a Jon Edward they’re probably not thinking, “He’s a psychic and so, I distrust him.” Rather, they’re probably thinking “That jerk is pretending to talk to dead people. Can you believe that?”

On the topic of the hypothetical psychic who predicts plane crashes-- sure, the first time it happened the FBI/FAA/whoever would probably have a question or two, but wouldn’t be able to come up with a connection. There’d be some shrugging and it would end after a brief investigation. The second time it happened, a lot of people would probably be really disconcerted. The psychic would probably be scrutinized more thoroughly or perhaps even placed under surveillance. Still, no connections to the crash, no problem. The third time it happened, the guy would be the on the payroll with the FAA/FBI/whoever like, before the day was over. Would could possibly be more valuable to the FAA than a guy who can predict plane crashes!?

252

Just forget it, that’s the best course of action. I am not interested in whether you believe in psychics or not. There are much more important things in this world.

253

The Prophet speaks ! Are you sure that YOU don’t have psychic powers there, recessiveMeme ? :smiley:

254

Definitely the latter. Regarding the former, the best known general prognosticator would be Nostradamus – and even today, people are still trying to figure out if he really foresaw things like WWII and 9/11, or if he was just some crazy loon who babbled a lot of nonsense.

Everyone’s asking me to come up with my definition of “psychic”, and…well, my best explanation would be, “Someone who is skilled at detecting unconscious rhythms & apophenic connections in the grand matrix of the universe.” I’m not even sure what that means myself :smiley: but I’ll try to explain:

We all know about cold reading. Anyone who knows how to interpret body language and how the neurotypical mind works can become a skilled cold reader, whether they’re truly psychic or not. However, a genuine psychic reading goes beyond mere body language – it’s about reading a persons “rhythms”. The way they dress, their tone of voice, the way they carry on a conversation, all combine to project “rhythms” which give you a deeper insight into that person’s personality.

The process more like statistical analysis or weather forecasting – that’s why psychic readings tend to be general and not very specific. For example, I can say, “RecessiveMeme has a playful & energetic personality, but she’s also very logical” (which shows in the tone of your postings, so it’s not really a “cold read” at all) – but if I were to say, “Your mother’s maiden name is Schwartz, and you like chocolate ripple ice cream,” I’d probably be way off the mark.

It’s vital to understand, however, that most people DON’T read these apophenic connections; and frankly, I don’t know why. I suppose it’s the nature of our modern, 21st century society – everyone’s distracted, tied down to their routines, always watching too much Fox News. Sometimes, even the most obvious connections get skipped over.

You ain’t just whistlin’ Dixie…some people don’t even believe in verifiable claims, such as landing on the Moon. :rolleyes:

255

Nonsense. I have a book giving his complete ‘prophecies’ in the original languages. I keep it to prove it was nonsense.

Nostradamus never mentions Hitler. He does say Hister. Hister is a name for the Danube. One quatrain actually includes “bridge de Hister”.

The Nostradamus prediction of 911 was written by somebody else. I’m sure Snopes still has a page on this.

Nostradamus reportedly made good jam. But he couldn’t predict his way out of a wet paper bag. Some people may believe he did. But they have no proof.

I’ve been convinced that a virus, not stress, causes ulcers. I’ve been convinced that scientists can grow a human ear on the back of a rat. I was doubtful of both claims. Then, came evidence. As a teenager, I believed in the predictive powers of Nostradamus. But a study of the evidence convinced me otherwise.

256

So you say. I say bullshit, and it’s getting so deep I need my boots.

Or maybe they tend to be more general because people like you will find more things to connect with their predictions if the possibilities are greater, and you will be easier to hoodwink into believing there’s “something to it”.

Looks like it worked.

257

Could you please name a current real psychic?

258

This is the best link I could find. Apparently they don’t have an official website. Ask for Pam.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=church+of+the+rose&near=Santa+Monica,+CA&fb=1&view=text&latlng=34015966,-118493613,16979486891009461189

259

KGS What have you experienced that could not be explained by mental illness? How do you know your perception of ghosts is not a complex hallucination? What convinces you that these are real ghosts?

In your post about Randi, you give a lot of information about auras. Given that you seem to know so much about them, why can’t you prove they exist? If confronted with a community of deaf people, I could prove the existence of sound. If confronted with a group of colorblind people, I could prove the existence of color. If you can perceive auras, why can’t you prove to us that they exist?

If real psychics occupy such an enlightened state of mind and seek to do good for humanity, why aren’t there more famous ones? Why don’t these people seek fame and wealth as means of doing the most good? Wouldn’t fame allow them to take on more students whose consciousness they could raise? Gandhi, for example, had no interest in wealth or fame as ends in themselves. But the more money he could get, the more good he could do and the more famous he was, the more people who could reach. Why then aren’t real psychics rich and famous?

260

Could you please name a current real psychic.