# Dear Parents of my Students: It's Your Fault. (F that 'sensitivy training'!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253 "2011-10-11T03:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/81 "2011-10-15T04:08:43Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I wish we put more money and resources into all our schools, but especially ones like yours, CP. Seriously, please explain how “putting more money and resources” into CP’s school would change the parents or the general culture in which those kids live. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/82 "2011-10-15T05:14:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Seriously, please explain how “putting more money and resources” into CP’s school would change the parents or the general culture in which those kids live. It won’t change the culture - it may - might -hope - change the way those children think of the culture they’ve been raised in. Any one child who decides to learn - to not be what she sees around her - makes a difference. A child who gets to eat before school and learns more before of that is going to do better than one who was hungry. It’'s not going to change the parents. It’s going to show the kids that they have a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/83 "2011-10-15T05:27:26Z")
> [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > It won’t change the culture - it may - might -hope - change the way those children think of the culture they’ve been raised in. > > Any one child who decides to learn - to not be what she sees around her - makes a difference. > > A child who gets to eat before school and learns more before of that is going to do better than one who was hungry. > > It’'s not going to change the parents. It’s going to show the kids that they have a choice. The school system in the United States is already spending more per student than almost any other country (I think Switzerland beats us). I really don’t understand how spending more will motivate even one more child to “decide to learn” - are you going to start giving cash prizes for learnin’? Yes, if the state took the kid away from the parents, clothed the kid, fed the kid, housed the kid, and educated the kid, while isolating the kid from the poisonous culture in which the kid grew up, it would change the results. But I don’t think either you or CP or Indygrrrl are advocating that, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/84 "2011-10-15T05:33:54Z")
No. We’re showing the kid they can have it better than what they have now. We’re showing them they’re worth more than what they’re being given. We do that because it’s true and because we care. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/85 "2011-10-15T05:37:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The school system in the United States is already spending more per student than almost any other country (I think Switzerland beats us). Cite? Is this average pp/spending? Does it account for admin costs? What is the actual per cent being spent on instruction time? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/86 "2011-10-15T05:42:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Cite? Is this average pp/spending? Does it account for admin costs? What is the actual per cent being spent on instruction time? It’s average per pupil spending. Never seen it broken down. > **[K-12 Spending Per Student in the OECD](https://www.mercatus.org/research/data-visualizations/k-12-spending-student-oecd)** > > This chart by Mercatus Center Senior Research Fellow Veronique de Rugy compares K-12 education expenditures per pupil in each of the world’s major industrial powers. The differences are dramatic enough (Germany: 55K, US: 90+K) that I don’t think breaking it down will change the fact that we spend the most much. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/87 "2011-10-15T06:06:59Z")
If you spend 5 per cent on administration, 2 per cent on nursing/counseling, 1 per cent on transport…you get the idea…it does make a difference. And per pupils spending will also make a difference depending on what kind of services you’re providing: special ed, English as a second language, alternative education, etc. As far as actual supplies, textbooks, teachers and resources, almost any urban teacher will tell you that there’s no money for anything. I doubt Switzerland has 40 per cent ESL students, and apparently they pay a lot better (Google tells me about 75k cf, which shows me to be 83k USD). ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/88 "2011-10-15T10:55:07Z")
\*\*Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse \*\* > [@](#): > > They fuck you up, your mum and dad. > They may not mean to, but they do. > They fill you with the faults they had > And add some extra, just for you. > > But they were fucked up in their turn > By fools in old-style hats and coats, > Who half the time were soppy-stern > And half at one another’s throats. > > Man hands on misery to man. > It deepens like a coastal shelf. > Get out as early as you can, > And don’t have any kids yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/89 "2011-10-15T12:20:31Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > Not sure I agree with that. In 1981 if I came home with a note from the teacher for screwing up, I’d get punished, no questions asked. Mom and Dad respected the teacher’s authority and opinion. Now Mom and Dad go down to the school, wave the note in the teacher’s face and ask why Little Johnny is being picked on. Still happens. I got a call from the Asst. Principal last year for my son’s bad behavior. Nothing evil - pantsing a friend of his. I could tell from his voice that he HATES these calls, and we chatted for a while. There are three outcomes, the reasonable parent - who was me “yes, I understand. We will talk to him. Yes, detention is appropriate. Yes, I understand that this isn’t a big deal and agree, doing this to a friend is different than doing this to someone you don’t like or don’t know. We’ll take away the XBox for a week. Thanks for letting me know and be sure to let me know if there are any other issues.” The other two… “My kid didn’t do anything wrong! How dare you punish him for something like this. Boys will be boys. Hell, his friend probably deserved it. If you put my kid in detention, I’ll sue!” and “That little shit. He’s always been a no good kid. He’s been nothing but a pain my my butt since he was born. I can’t believe he’s making me deal with a phone call at work. Never did have any respect for me. I’ll take care of it when I get home.” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/90 "2011-10-15T12:25:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s average per pupil spending. Never seen it broken down. > > [K-12 Spending Per Student in the OECD | Mercatus Center](http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd) > > The differences are dramatic enough (Germany: 55K, US: 90+K) that I don’t think breaking it down will change the fact that we spend the most much. One of the problems here is what goes into “per pupil spending.” A friend of mine has a daughter with severe CP. She is in the school system. It costs the school system over $100k just for that child. She needs a full time aid. She gets physical and occupational therapy. She has a speech therapist, in the hope that the unintelligible noises she makes now can turn into recognizable speech. She takes a special bus to school. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/91 "2011-10-15T13:57:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of the problems here is what goes into “per pupil spending.” > > A friend of mine has a daughter with severe CP. She is in the school system. It costs the school system over $100k just for that child. She needs a full time aid. She gets physical and occupational therapy. She has a speech therapist, in the hope that the unintelligible noises she makes now can turn into recognizable speech. She takes a special bus to school. …and other OECD nations, of course, would also provide those services, but some or all of it might come under another budget heading - for instance, the therapies might be counted as medical care. My township has a lower level of per pupil spending than many other townships in Norway, in spite of having what many would consider among the country’s best schools. There are several reasons for this. For one thing, our schools are quite large by national standards (500+ pupils in many cases), lowering administration costs. For another, nearly all pupils in this township live close enough to their schools that they do not receive bussing services or get reimbursed for transportation. They walk, or are driven by their parents, which costs the township nothing. Compare that with far-flung rural townships where the schools have 100 pupils each in a “full” year, and 60 of those come by bus and/or ferry. That administration costs issue may be important in US school spending, too, though I’ve never seen the figures. In most other countries, public schools are run directly by the local or national governments, not by separate school boards. Even if school board members are generally volunteers - and I don’t know if they are or not - the mere existence of a board will cost _something_. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/92 "2011-10-15T14:02:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s average per pupil spending. Never seen it broken down. > > [K-12 Spending Per Student in the OECD | Mercatus Center](http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd) > > The differences are dramatic enough (Germany: 55K, US: 90+K) that I don’t think breaking it down will change the fact that we spend the most much. Although this may be true, I’d like to see a better cite. Looks like Mercatus Center is funded by the Koch family. > **[Mercatus Center](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center)** > > The Mercatus Center is an American libertarian, free-market-oriented non-profit think tank. The Mercatus Center is located at the George Mason University campus, but it is privately funded and its employees are independent of the university. It is directed by Benjamin Klutsey and its board is chaired by American economist Tyler Cowen. The Center works with policy experts, lobbyists, and government officials to connect academic learning with real-world practice. Taking its name from the L Accordin... Even if that statistic turns out to be correct, it is not indicative on what is actually be spent on the students and the teachers. It also doesn’t break down what’s being spent on poor students. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/93 "2011-10-15T17:02:13Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > “That little shit. He’s always been a no good kid. He’s been nothing but a pain my my butt since he was born. I can’t believe he’s making me deal with a phone call at work. Never did have any respect for me. I’ll take care of it when I get home.” I get this a lot. What happens: is kid comes home, mom snaps at him, end of story. Or…my favorite…a kid (who has an IEP and is 13) spit on a 16 year old girl. It was dumb and not really intentional. The girl flipped and threatened to beat him up. The girl had to be sent home. Personally, I would’ve sent both home or let them both stay but wasn’t in the room at the time. So when the girl calls her mom to tell her she’s getting sent home, the mom says, “Next time, you can punch him.” The girl left school, went to the mall and had her nails done, came back and picked up her friends and missed out on getting her stuff done. So yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/94 "2011-10-15T18:14:16Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > If you don’t like it you can leave." I do not believe teachers in the US are typically empowered to say this. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/95 "2011-10-16T08:12:32Z")
As much as I agree that parents are the problem in these cases, the only way of stopping bad/stupid people from becoming parents is eugenics advocacy. And eugenics is so horrible that even if this (legions of shitty parents cranking out shitty kids who become shitty parents who crank out more shitty kids, etc) is the trade-off, I’ll still take it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/96 "2011-10-17T12:21:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I doubt Switzerland has 40 per cent ESL students, and apparently they pay a lot better (Google tells me about 75k cf, which shows me to be 83k USD). I would expect Switzerland to have waaaaaaay over 40% ESL students… they also have about 30% German-as-second-language, French-as-second-language and Italian-as-second-language students, assuming that the immigration stats (amounts and cultures of origin) I saw c. 2007 hold for the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/97 "2011-10-17T12:58:17Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Although this may be true, I’d like to see a better cite. Looks like Mercatus Center is funded by the Koch family. > > [Mercatus Center - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center) > > Even if that statistic turns out to be correct, it is not indicative on what is actually be spent on the students and the teachers. It also doesn’t break down what’s being spent on poor students. I suspect that the biggest problem with that graph is that it doesn’t take into account serious disparities in the amount of resources a given amount of cash will buy in each country. For instance, I suppose that teacher salaries are a large proportion of education costs. [This site](http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml) shows that teachers in the US are paid more than any other listed country and [this one](http://huebler.blogspot.com/2008/11/ptr.html) shows that, correspondingly, a lot of those “lower spending” countries are able to employ more teachers per student than the US does. And I’m sure textbooks, building maintenance and admin are also much more expensive in the US than a lot of other countries. So yeah, spending a lot of cash doesn’t necessarily mean you’re able to buy all the resources you actually need for the job. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/98 "2011-10-17T15:13:52Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > And I’m sure textbooks, building maintenance and admin are also much more expensive in the US than a lot of other countries. Than the EU countries? Germany, France, UK? Why? How do they manage to pay so much less for their teachers, textbooks, maintenance and administration and still maintain k-12 education that is superior to the US? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/99 "2011-10-17T15:42:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Than the EU countries? Germany, France, UK? Why? How do they manage to pay so much less for their teachers, textbooks, maintenance and administration and still maintain k-12 education that is superior to the US? I think what **Aspidistra** is talking about is the old problem with comparing money at the exchange rate vs comparing purchasing power. It’s something which comes up very often comparing salaries. If John Doe makes 1,000Simoleons/month and he lives in a place where chicken costs 1S/portion, he’ll be able to eat chicken more often than Mike Dew, who makes 30,000S/m but lives in a place where a portion of chicken goes for 100S. My salary per day last month was the same as last year - but I’m in a different place. Renting here a flat the same size and age as the one I had last year would cost about 5x as much; food and transportation are more expensive too (although not by such horrible factor). So, although I was making the same in both places, my piggybank’s growth speed was certainly not the same. The cost of materials is likely to be similar dollar-for-dollar; the cost of manpower is lower in the EU than in the US. Oh, something else although it was at a different level: in Spain, most of the labs my class of 80 college students had involved all 80 students and 4 TAs. In the US, the ones I taught involved 1TA and 20 students. The ratios are the same, right? But the hours were not, due to space resources: we got 3-4 hours worth of lab, my students got 1h. ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253/100 "2011-10-17T15:59:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > **MissTake** , I Googled Second Harvest and came up with FeedingAmerica – was that it? Here, we go to Second Harvest Heartland, but I would presume Feeding America or another food shelf distribution organization would be the same. I help out at our church’s food shelf, and we go there weekly to round out what we’ve received by donation. You may not be able to purchase directly from them, but I bet they could direct you to an organization that could help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-parents-of-my-students-its-your-fault-f-that-sensitivy-training/599253.md?page=4)