# Dear president, please don't lob missiles at nuclear tinderboxes. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980 "2006-01-14T18:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/21 "2006-01-14T23:27:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t buy that argument. And even if they are, Iraq ain’t that far from Pakistan. Fly 'em in. We’re obviously not concerned with Pakistani sovereinty if we’re willing to drop bombs inside their border. > > Now, it might be that a Special Ops strike isn’t feasible. I don’t know-- I’m not a military expert by any means. Maybe there would’ve been a shoot-out that ended up killling more people than the bomb did. But this kind of shit makes us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, not less. You can’t just “fly them in.” An attack using special ops is a _very_ complicated affair. The first thing you have to do is have a team who can blend in with the locals, there’s a _real_ shortage of those folks. (And it’s made worse by the fact that the military bounces out homosexuals.) Next, they have to be familiar with the area, and ideally, have a local contact who can help them move around. You also have to have a safe landing site for dropping off the forces and then a **seperate** extraction area, where the guys can be picked up, both of which have to be relatively safe from hostile fire. If you’re after a _person_ who knows that you’re after him (as the heads of AQ surely do, in a general sense), then he’s likely to _not_ stay in the same place for very long, and is liable to change his modes of travel frequently. This means that you might have as little as a few minutes to act on the intel that the bad guy is at location X. As for making us more vulnerable to a terrorist attack, I’d have to disagree. Certainly, it _does_ piss more folks off at America, but the odds of it enabling AQ or some other terrorist group to put together a 9/11-style operation are pretty slim, IMHO. Iraq didn’t inspire a wave of suicide bombers to hit the US, despite predictions from some that it would. While our guys are getting hit by suicide bombers in Iraq (and possibly Afghanistan), AQ and their ilk haven’t gotten anyone to do the same in the US. Of course, that doesn’t mean our luck will hold forever. **Revtim** , the problem is that we can **never** be certain that there **won’t** be innocent victims. Even if we sent in a special ops team to an isolated AQ hideout in the middle of Godforsakenistan, there could be hostages or wives and children of AQ who could get hurt. Then there’s also the trick of putting desirable targets smack in the center innocents, in order to deter a US attack. War is an ugly, nasty, brutal business, and unfortunately, both AQ and the US were willing to enter it while only thinking lightly. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/22 "2006-01-14T23:28:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It does not appear that Pakistani leaders are much happier about terrorists taking refuge in their country or working to undermine the governments of neighboring countries than we are. Whatever. Half of the Pakistani government is in cahoots with the baddies. They accept our weapons with one hand while finding nice hiding places for OBL and assorted “terrorist training camps” with the other. Their military, secret military, and official government each tell us different things at the same time. Anyway, none of that matters. Would you _ever_ remain friends with a nation that made an ‘accidental’ attack on civilians on US soil? Three houses in Baltimore get bombed by the Latvians, who thought there were terrorists there. Do you keep friendly relations with Latvia? ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/23 "2006-01-14T23:42:07Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But I don’t see how we could be certain of that unless we had guys on the ground colletcting intel. And if we had guys on the ground collecting intel, we should be able to have a make a more “surgical” strike. > > If we’re not willing to risk the lives of our combat troops, we shouldn’t be willing to risk the lives of innocent children. Agreed. However, in the _theoretical_ attack in which Osama is killed, there may be a case made that the death of innocents is Osama’s fault unless it were proven that such an attack could have been executed successfully without the death of these innocents. _If_ Osama were hiding behind innocents in order to protect himself from attack, then the responsibility for harm to those innocents must to a great degree be carried by Osama. That said, it is the height of irresponsibility to launch missiles into civilian areas without guaranteed intelligence. It is the height or irresponsibility to launch missiles into civilian areas unless there are no other reasonable alternatives available. Criminal irresponsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/24 "2006-01-14T23:43:33Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do we have to bomb the fucking shit out of everything??? What’s good for the goose… Let’s start using this tactic here in the US. ```auto Los Angeles, CA (NK) -- A house suspected of containing a convicted murderer was attacked today by the Los Angeles Police Department. Two LAPD F-16's dropped laser-guided bombs and incendiary devices on the ranch-style bungalow in northern Long Beach. LAPD spokesperson Johnathon Irons, acknowledging the collateral damaged, commented: "We regret the destruction of the three surrounding blocks, but people need to remember that this was a very bad man. I'm pleased to announce that earlier today an LAPD forensic unit reported finding a fragment of a tooth that most likely came from the suspect. Justice may come with a cost, but a dangerous felon is off the streets." Civil rights activists criticized the home attack for being racially motivated. When reached for comment, a spokesperson for the Rev. Jessie Jackson said the black leader was still missing after last weeks firebombing of suspected drug dealers in Harlem. ~~~~wavy lines~~~~ wavy lines ~~~~wavy lines~~~~ ``` ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/25 "2006-01-14T23:55:03Z")
**Metacom** , your scenario would be a better parody if it [hadn’t already happened in Philadelphia nearly 21 years ago.](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4651126) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/26 "2006-01-14T23:57:07Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > However, if you or your family or your neighbors were knowingly harboring Osama, then the responsibility might be considered partially be yours. It would not be my responsibility for what my neighbors did, or my children’s responsibility for what I might be doing. > [@Metacom](#): > > What’s good for the goose… Let’s start using this tactic here in the US. > > ```auto > > Los Angeles, CA (NK) -- A house suspected of containing a convicted murderer was attacked today by the Los Angeles Police Department. Two LAPD F-16's dropped laser-guided bombs and incendiary devices on the ranch-style bungalow in northern Long Beach. > > ``` Google MOVE and Philadelphia. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/27 "2006-01-15T00:02:39Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Three houses in Baltimore get bombed by the Latvians, who thought there were terrorists there. Do you keep friendly relations with Latvia? Unfortunately, if in your scenario Latvia has become the world’s dominant military and economic force (but still has the possibility of turning itself around and using that force **wisely** after the next regime change, so it’s not a complete political “lost cause”), you do maintain somewhat-friendly relations with it. You hold your nose while you do it, and take a long hot shower afterwards, but you do it. [Realpolitik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/28 "2006-01-15T00:06:03Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Whatever. Half of the Pakistani government is in cahoots with the baddies. They accept our weapons with one hand while finding nice hiding places for OBL and assorted “terrorist training camps” with the other. Their military, secret military, and official government each tell us different things at the same time. > > Anyway, none of that matters. Would you _ever_ remain friends with a nation that made an ‘accidental’ attack on civilians on US soil? Three houses in Baltimore get bombed by the Latvians, who thought there were terrorists there. Do you keep friendly relations with Latvia? Well, frankly, I’d be pissed at my government for being so corrupt that the nation of Latvia felt that it had no other choice than to launch such an attack. Of course, I’m funny like that. IAC, your analogy doesn’t really work in this case. Pakistan’s not a democracy, and even if the Pakistani intelligence forces had done the thing all on their own, the US would probably get the blame for it thanks to the shitty rep. we’ve managed to make for ourselves over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/29 "2006-01-15T00:12:05Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > **Metacom** , your scenario would be a better parody if it [hadn’t already happened in Philadelphia nearly 21 years ago.](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4651126) Wow. … On the bright side, I guess that means we’re not acting hypocritically when we bomb foreign houses with criminal suspects in them! U.S.A.! U.S.A.! ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/30 "2006-01-15T00:21:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Wow. > > … > > On the bright side, I guess that means we’re not acting hypocritically when we bomb foreign houses with criminal suspects in them! U.S.A.! U.S.A.! Don’t forget [David Koresh and the Branch Davidians at Waco.](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/31 "2006-01-15T00:27:12Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Don’t forget [David Koresh and the Branch Davidians at Waco.](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html) That wasn’t technically a bombing, much less an aerial one. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/32 "2006-01-15T00:38:22Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > That wasn’t technically a bombing, much less an aerial one. True. It was a ground operation on US soil, led by US forces who thought that they had everything under control, and it went horribly wrong. It also happened under the first Clinton Administration, and despite the large number of children killed, the American populace didn’t feel the need to elect Bob Dole president. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/33 "2006-01-15T03:21:40Z")
# of terrorists killed in this latest bombing in Pakistan: 0 # of new terrorists created as a result of this fuckup: TBD George W. Bush. Winning the war on terror since 2001. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/34 "2006-01-15T03:32:35Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > True. It was a ground operation on US soil, led by US forces who thought that they had everything under control, and it went horribly wrong. It also happened under the first Clinton Administration, and despite the large number of children killed, the American populace didn’t feel the need to elect Bob Dole president. Although it was amusing to read the above in a Southpark “they took ur jobs!” voice, it has fuck-all to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/35 "2006-01-15T03:46:38Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Although it was amusing to read the above in a Southpark “they took ur jobs!” voice, it has fuck-all to do with this thread. Oh, I don’t know about that. **John Mace** suggested that we use a special ops squad, implying that it’d be better and reduce the risk of civilian casualties. The raid at Waco was conducted by the ATF who are supposed to be highly specialized law enforcement folks, in friendly territory, where we had ample intel, and **knew** right where the bad guys were, and the thing turned out badly for a lot of innocent folks. It _should_ have been a fairly simple operation for the ATF, instead, it turned into a blood bath. It’s entirely possible that the same thing could have happened in Pakistan if a ground operation had been attempted. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/36 "2006-01-15T03:53:26Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > It’s entirely possible that the same thing could have happened in Pakistan if a ground operation had been attempted. True. But the possibility of a squad of commandos accidently destroying a building is significantly less then that of an airplane intentionally dropping a bomb on one. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/37 "2006-01-15T03:57:23Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > # of terrorists killed in this latest bombing in Pakistan: 0 > > # of new terrorists created as a result of this fuckup: TBD > > George W. Bush. Winning the war on terror since 2001. :rolleyes: Not true accordng to a Pakistani official ([article link](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/international/asia/15pakistan.html?hp&ex=1137301200&en=82150cfff0450a67&ei=5094&partner=homepage)) > [@](#): > > Local officials in the Bajaur district, where the airstrike happened, said 18 civilians had been killed in the attack, including six children. But the senior Pakistani official who spoke of Mr. Zawahiri suggested that the death toll was higher, and he said that at least 11 militants had been killed in the attack. Seven of the dead were Arab fighters, and another four were Pakistani militants from Punjab Province, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to brief the news media. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/38 "2006-01-15T04:00:38Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > # of terrorists killed in this latest bombing in Pakistan: 0 We don’t know that for sure yet. I mean, sure, they mainly got one family, and only ten of _them_ were women and children. Even ignoring the four men, the dead _might_ have been terrorist women and children. At least four people who weren’t members of that family were killed, too. I think those are the ones whose bodies were taken away to be identified. Some reports are as high as twenty-five dead, so there’s even more hope that there’s a bad guy or two in there amongst the innocent dead, if true. Probably, though, that’s just the typical whinging exaggeration you get from people with the bad sense to live in housing developments targeted by remote-controlled missiles. Ouch. Sorry. One thing that puzzles me, if true… There are some reports of locals having seen the drones circling in the few days before the attack. Is this possible? Do these things fly so low that they’re visible from the ground? If so, um… wouldn’t it be kind of expected that bad guys would run to the basement, wait for the all-clear, and then get the fuck out of Dodge? Or would they be counting on how unthinkable it would be for someone to rain missles down in a densely-populated area instead of waiting for a relatively clear shot at a vehicle in an untrafficked area, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/39 "2006-01-15T04:08:02Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > True. But the possibility of a squad of commandos accidently destroying a building is significantly less then that of an airplane intentionally dropping a bomb on one. You poke a stick into a hornet’s nest, you’re going to have problems, even if it was on accident. Depending upon on the attitude of the locals, our guys could have _lots_ of problems. If the place is a hot bed of anti-American sentiment (and what place _isn’t_ these days), then our guys could expect to be shot at by your average Pakistani, just because they were American. Do you think that our troops should then _not_ shoot back? Because that’s the **only** way they’d be certain that they _didn’t_ kill any innocent folks, and if they _didn’t_ shoot back, you can be certain our guys won’t be coming back alive. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980/40 "2006-01-15T04:10:12Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Do you think that our troops should then _not_ shoot back? No, I don’t think that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-president-please-dont-lob-missiles-at-nuclear-tinderboxes/339980.md?page=3)