# Dear Republicans: The debt ceiling? Again?! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190 "2012-05-17T08:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/1 "2012-05-17T08:12:33Z")
> **[Republicans Pledge New Standoff on Debt Limit (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/16/us/politics/gop-pledges-new-standoff-on-debt-limit.html?_r=1)** > > Speaker John A. Boehner set the stage for a bruising election-year showdown on fiscal policy while Mitt Romney hit President Obama hard on his fiscal stewardship in a speech in Des Moines. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Speaker John A. Boehner on Tuesday set the stage for a bruising election-year showdown on fiscal policy, vowing to hold up another increase in the federal debt ceiling unless it was offset by larger spending cuts. > > […] > > Mr. Boehner’s stance threatened to throw Congress back into the debt-limit stalemate that consumed Washington in 2011, but this time at the height of a campaign that Republicans are trying to make a referendum on Mr. Obama’s handling of the economy. > > “A prairie fire of debt is sweeping across Iowa and our nation,” Mr. Romney said, “and every day we fail to act we feed that fire with our own lack of resolve.” > > The Boehner comments, made at a fiscal summit meeting in Washington, were the first public shot in what promises to be the most consequential budget fight in a generation. On Jan. 1, nearly $8 trillion in tax increases and across-the-board spending cuts are scheduled to take effect. > > Mr. Boehner said he would not allow Congress to duck tough decisions with another round of short-term measures. He also said the House would pass an extension of the Bush-era tax cuts before the November elections, and he urged lawmakers in both parties to reach a long-term deal on spending and tax changes — **but no additional taxes** — to head off a fiscal calamity. > > […] …Could you get any more transparently partisan and idiotic? Come on, this is just pathetic. It was stupid partisan posturing in 2011, and now it’s even more obvious. Not really sure if there’s anything more to say about this than that the Republicans have, once again, put politics above sound policy. Yeah, they’re bringing back the debt ceiling debate. What the fuck?! What the fucking fuck?! Is there _any reason_ other than bloody-minded political bullshit to do this? It was retarded in 2011, and it’s only going to be more retarded now, a few months before the election. There is _nothing_ to be said about this that cannot be summed up with the following statement: The republican party is a cancer upon our nation, and we would all be better off if they died in a plane crash. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/2 "2012-05-17T09:11:56Z")
Let’s not forget that the 2011’s unconstitutional fight resulted in a downgrade of the US’s credit rating. WWII couldn’t do it, but Boehner did. How is all of this unconstitutional? Cue the music: [QUOTE=The 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America] The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. [/QUOTE] By refusing to raise the debt ceiling, the Republicans made our debt questionable, as exhibited by the credit professionals at S&P. I call for Boehner to either pledge allegiance to the constitution or tender his immediate resignation. Boehner also is a weasel and a deal-breaker. Last year, they agreed on big automated cuts to defense if they couldn’t cut a deal with the Dems on the budget. Now they’re just walking away with that. We could trust Boehner’s word moving forward. But that would be immoral: trusting those who can’t keep their word only leads to bad outcomes. And let’s not forget the deep background. Democrats are willing to discuss entitlements. Republicans rule out tax increases out of hand. And yet pundits say the problem is with “Congress”. Nonsense. Democrats have conservatives, moderates and liberals in their coalition. Washington Republicans only consist of loons and those afraid of being primaried by loons. [http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/05/16/11735314-asymmetrical-debt-reduction-warfare](http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11735314-asymmetrical-debt-reduction-warfare) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/3 "2012-05-17T09:22:03Z")
People around here often say that the Republicans’ end goal is to deprive the government of money, starving the beast in other words. Looks more to me like their end goal is to lose as many elections as humanly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/4 "2012-05-17T09:48:36Z")
So your position is that the Constitution requires Congress to vote for any debt ceiling increase that is required? I don’t agree. You misunderstand the difference between obligations as a result of debt and obligations arising from appropriations. The Debt Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment constrains Congress from refusing to pay “…obligations which the government has theretofore issued in the exercise of the power to borrow money on the credit of the United States.” (Quoting _Perry v. US_, 294 U.S. 330 (1935)). A failure to raise the debt ceiling will impact obligations created through the _appropriations_ process: Medicare payments, salaries of park rangers, payments to universities or researchers for research grants, aid to Madagascar, rent on USDA field offices and the like. Interest on the national debt, T-bills, would still be paid. In other words, Congress borrows money on the credit of the United Staes and uses it to pay appropriated expenses. Congress must repay the money it has borrowed; it has no Constitutional mandate to pay the appropriations it has enacted. In addition to the Supreme Court language I quote above, the Treasury Department’s General Counsel wrote to the NYT when this issue was in the news before, in response to Professor Laurence Tribe chastising Secretary Geither for saying what you just did. The General Cousel’s letter clarified that Secretary Geither agreed with Tribe that Congress did not have a Constitutional obligation to raise the debt ceiling… although he certainly felt Congress had an obligation to ensure that the country honored the appropriated expenses, he agreed that only Congress could raise the binding legal constraint that was the debt ceiling. [Letter here.](http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Pages/FACT-CHECK-Treasury-General-Counsel-George-Madison-Responds-to-New-York-Times-Op-Ed-on-14th-Amendment.aspx) On this claim, then, you’re very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/5 "2012-05-17T10:12:30Z")
The Congress can manage the deficit by authorising (or not authorising) expenditure, and by raising or lowering taxes. Once it has decided to spend $X billion, and to raise $Y billion, doesn’t the level of debt follow automatically? The right time to have the debate is when they authorise the spending – but perhaps that means some actual hard decisions, rather than just posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/6 "2012-05-17T10:15:36Z")
Hey Bricker, just to be clear, can we agree that this is a fucking idiotic, partisan, politically motivated move? I know you’re a republican, but I assume you’re not totally stupid… The only person on this forum whom I’d trust to say “this is a good idea” is Clothahump, and I think he might be clinically retarded. @MfM: “lose”? Wrong word. The debt ceiling is an _amazing_ political issue to push, because they get to blame any fallout from it on Obama, and a shameful amount of the populace will buy the lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/7 "2012-05-17T13:00:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Hey Bricker, just to be clear, can we agree that this is a fucking idiotic, partisan, politically motivated move? I know you’re a republican, but I assume you’re not totally stupid… The only person on this forum whom I’d trust to say “this is a good idea” is Clothahump, and I think he might be clinically retarded. I endorse this post: > [@Giles](#): > > The Congress can manage the deficit by authorising (or not authorising) expenditure, and by raising or lowering taxes. Once it has decided to spend $X billion, and to raise $Y billion, doesn’t the level of debt follow automatically? The right time to have the debate is when they authorise the spending – but perhaps that means some actual hard decisions, rather than just posturing. I’d just clarify that the level of “debt” doesn’t follow automatically, because in addition to authorizing itself to spend $X billion, it must authorize itself to raise $Y billion via borrowing. It’s that second step that’s at issue here. But the main point you make, **Giles** , is right on the money (no pun intended): The right time to have the debate is when they authorize the spending. I agree with you, **BPC** , that this is politically motivated and partisan move. I’m not sure it’s idiotic yet, in that if it’s effective, then ‘idiotic’ might not be a good word, but it’s in bad faith. That is, this does not arise from a principled objection to the increased debt; if it did, then the time to object was when the appropriations bill was being debated. It’s… dishonorable… for Congress to agree to spend money and then cut off the spending by refusing to authorize the debt necessary to service it. In my opinion, anyway. But note well that dishonorable, just like idiotic and partisan and nakedly political, are all terms with one thing in common: they are not synonyms for “unconstituional.” ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/8 "2012-05-17T13:12:56Z")
I endorse this pitting. But honestly, I saw this coming five months ago. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/9 "2012-05-17T13:29:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree with you, **BPC** , that this is politically motivated and partisan move. I agree, but as I pointed out in the last thread, this sort of partisanship has been going on for a long time. The earliest reference I could find to it was in 1881 when President Hayes vetoed a debt rollover bill which had attached to it some kind of measure affecting competition in banks. Is **Budget Player Cadet** a principled observer who objects to all use of the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip? Or is he just a partisan hack whose real objection is to Republicans and their goals? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/10 "2012-05-17T13:38:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree, but as I pointed out in the last thread, this sort of partisanship has been going on for a long time. The earliest reference I could find to it was in 1881 when President Hayes vetoed a debt rollover bill which had attached to it some kind of measure affecting competition in banks. > > Is **Budget Player Cadet** a principled observer who objects to all use of the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip? Or is he just a partisan hack whose real objection is to Republicans and their goals? Who cares? If he’s right, he’s right. It may well be that **BPC** wouldn’t piss on the GOP if they were on fire. But that doesn’t transform the current technique into something honorable. But what do I know? I’m a Jackass Extraordinaire. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/11 "2012-05-17T13:38:58Z")
It’s a good political move by Republicans. Just hope they stick to it and don’t fold with a transparent cop-out like last time. Well, “hope” is the wrong word. It would be a miracle if they don’t fold. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/12 "2012-05-17T13:40:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who cares? If he’s right, he’s right. It may well be that **BPC** wouldn’t piss on the GOP if they were on fire. But that doesn’t transform the current technique into something honorable. You’re looking for “honor” in politics? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/13 "2012-05-17T13:43:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re looking for “honor” in politics? I think he’s hoping (like most people) for honor in governance. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/14 "2012-05-17T13:46:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I think he’s hoping (like most people) for honor in governance. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/15 "2012-05-17T13:48:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree, but as I pointed out in the last thread, this sort of partisanship has been going on for a long time. The earliest reference I could find to it was in 1881 when President Hayes vetoed a debt rollover bill which had attached to it some kind of measure affecting competition in banks. > > Is **Budget Player Cadet** a principled observer who objects to all use of the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip? Or is he just a partisan hack whose real objection is to Republicans and their goals? I don’t know about **Budget** , but I, for one, would like to go on record as condemning President Hayes for this maneuver … which he pulled off 131 years ago. Now why aren’t the current Republicans being petulant assholes in this regard again? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/16 "2012-05-17T13:49:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who cares? I care, because if it’s just a matter of partisanship then he is being fundamentally dishonest in his criticism. He should just come out and say he hates the Republican goals rather than dishonestly pretending his problem is with their methods. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/17 "2012-05-17T13:54:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Hilarious. And thus sums up the problem with the modern conservative movement in one pithy post. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/18 "2012-05-17T13:56:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m a Jackass Extraordinaire. Braggart. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/19 "2012-05-17T14:06:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I care, because if it’s just a matter of partisanship then he is being fundamentally dishonest in his criticism. He should just come out and say he hates the Republican goals rather than dishonestly pretending his problem is with their methods. But that’s a classic _ad hominem_ argument – you’re saying that **BPC** cannot advance this argument because of his other beliefs. So now I advance the precise argument he was offering: that this move is partisan political grandstanding, and not an honest objection to the debt. Clearly (I hope) I am immune to the charge that I simply hate the Republican goals. So now can the underlying argument be addressed? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190/20 "2012-05-17T14:09:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So now I advance the precise argument he was offering: that this move is partisan political grandstanding, and not an honest objection to the debt. It can’t be both? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dear-republicans-the-debt-ceiling-again-what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-you/622190.md?page=2)